Can someone explain the Khelif controversy?

[whatsinanameisthis]

I’ll start by saying I’ve read all the major news outlets coverage of the Khelif controversy and am still somewhat baffled. So wondering if anyone who has done more research than I can enlighten me.

From what I’ve read in the papers, Khelif was born a girl, is female, has lived her whole life as a woman. She is not trans, or a man. However she maybe has a condition which leads to elevated testosterone?

I’m trying to understand what the accusation is…

Do we think she’s really a trans man who is lying about having been born female?

Or are we saying that if she is a woman but with a condition, that people with that condition should be screened and excluded from the event? I understand that would seem if the condition isn’t her fault but of course differently abled people are all excluded from the mainstream olympics and instead compete in the paralympics. Or if this condition is real (I simply don’t know enough to understand), could the IOC mandate it’s treated before competitors participate?

Or is this even a question of doping? Is there a suggestion she has been taking testosterone to improve her performance?

Not sure why it’s hilarious that someone would interpret that as certainty.

Apologies I did leave the question mark off. I see why you thought
it was a statement. my mistake.

I'll put it out again.

What's the possibility that they think they are female if they have ( because of a DSD ) female genitalia , have spent their lives as female and the people around them regard them as female?

l

Apparently Khelif is a woman..

Khelif is a male with a DSD.

Read the threads its all there

Exactly, if you look back at many of our female sporting medal winners, they do not look typical, they are fitter, often more muscular, that does not make them men.

If you want to look at height and to suggest tall='more male', you should also consider weight, Khelif is in the 66kg category, so she is very light indeed to be a 178 cm tall male, that weight height ratio would be more typical for a female.

But neither weight nor height, nor muscles, nor someone saying (upthread) they personally see signs of 'male puberty' are how society assesses who is female or male, thankfully.

I don't think Khelif can be declared male on the basis of a height read on the internet.
A chromosome test and copping a feel of his female opponents breast on the other hand....

The current WBO and WBA men's welterweight (same category, approx 63–67 kg) champion, Terence Crawford, is 173cm tall.

The current WBC men's welterweight champion, Mario Barrios, is 178cm tall.

The current IBF men's welterweight champion, Jaron Ennis, is 178cm tall.

Khelif is bang on in comparison with male boxers in the same weight category.

Height within boxing weights is a balancing act - the shorter you are the more muscle you can have, the taller you are the greater your reach will be so boxers will often choose to make a slightly light weight to enjoy greater reach.

The IBA have confirmed he's male.

Oh give over. You can't compare the male bodied appearance of Khelif to a built up muscular and athletic woman like say Serena Williams who was ridiculously accused of being male.

On eyesight alone Khelif and Lin register as adult males from head to toe. We also have...the test from the IBA which they both accepted at the time. Carini testifying on the power of Khelif's punch and other boxers who are privy to more information than us, saying it is unfair.

I think there's some willfulness going on to be blind to this, I'm willing to bet that what will happen eventually is that Khelif and Lin will be found to have a similar DSD to Caster Semenya & not participate in the future.

I think this situation is lose lose all round and the IOC are failing everyone & making this a political issue.

Khelif is in the 66kg category, so she is very light indeed to be a 178 cm tall male

This is and example of the Prosecutors fallacy:

https://www.cebm.ox.ac.uk/news/views/the-prosecutors-fallacy

I've already cited 3 men's welterweight champions, 2 of whom are 178cm tall, the same height as Khelif, and 1 (double champion) who is 5cms shorter, at 173cm.

The men's Olympic gold medallists at the London games were 179cms (gold), 180cms (silver) and 179cms (bronze).

Khelif is bang on for height in the men's welterweight class.

You and your inconvenient facts, grrrr

I suppose because that choice of words implies more a sneaky bloke who has decided to dress up as a woman to win at boxing. Rather than something which is a bit more nuanced which is a sad situation of someone raised and socialised as a woman who then discovers they are male, but whilst already down the road of a chosen career in sports having thought they were just really really good. Of course men should not be able to compete as women. But I don’t feel we should be cruel to Khelif unless we have knowledge there was some form of conspiracy… i mean could it be conceivable s/he didn’t even know until the dna tests? Maybe? I do a lot of weightlifting and there are women at my gym who definitely look masculine as they train so much and have low body fat (def don’t take hormones) so I’m wondering if s/he had written off their appearance as just a lot of sport…

no idea, but reckon it’s best to be kind

Excellent point

Whether being XY, automatically means you're male is another debate
I don’t think this is an area of debate.

I don’t know that there’s willing blindness.

Mainstream media are being really cautious in their reporting. Loads of helpful posters talking about DSD but I can’t find actual confirmation anywhere this is something from which Khelif actually has. And people inferring from DSD how s/he would have been aware of their condition, but this does all seem speculation as we don’t have any medical information.

I understand the IBA did testing which has also been questioned. I do see there is a lot of circumstantial detail around her not challenging the decision at the time which doesn’t look great. But there could be loads of reasons for this. Remember when Obama didn’t release his birth certificate for ages to prove he was American… because he felt it was beneath him to have to prove what he clearly was. I don’t know maybe it’s the same situation. Not saying it’s more likely on the balance of probabilities. Saying it’s not impossible.

I guess my worry is the absolute worst case scenario is this is a woman who is basically being bullied for not being pretty enough and being too good at boxing. If this were true how awful would that be. How cruel.

I guess my worry is the absolute worst case scenario is this is a woman who is basically being bullied for not being pretty enough and being too good at boxing. If this were true how awful would that be. How cruel.

my worry is that the worst case scenario is that the tests leaked confirming both boxers are male with a DSD are true in which case women have been knowingly forced to fight men who can punch 162% harder than women and that the IOC have anyways known but just don’t care about women’s safety.. * *If this were true how awful would that be. How cruel.

There have been plenty of not 'pretty' sportswomen over the years!

Why are you focussing on Khelif's facial features? Look at her male body? And Lin's whilst you're at it.

I do see there is a lot of circumstantial detail around her not challenging the decision at the time which doesn’t look great. But there could be loads of reasons for this. Remember when Obama didn’t release his birth certificate for ages to prove he was American… because he felt it was beneath him to have to prove what he clearly was. I don’t know maybe it’s the same situation. Not saying it’s more likely on the balance of probabilities. Saying it’s not impossible.

Sports people have to prove things all the time - that they are free of performance enhancing drugs, that they are the correct weight for their class if there is one, that they have the correct disability for their class in the Paralympics.

The only possible reason for Khelif withdrawing his appeal to the CAS is that the result would have revealed his biological sex.

I think you missed my point - of course there ARE male boxers of that height and weight, I wasn't suggesting they don't exist, but they are statistical outliers, being so light, and that tall.
I was responding to someone who had said that Khelifs height in itself suggested that she was a man, when that height is on the tall side for a female, but not really particularly unusual.
I.e., on the whole, it is more common to be a 1.78m, 66kg woman, than a 1.78m, 66kg man (because on average men are heavierthen woman), so by the same argument of that height 'seems unusual for a woman', we might also say that height/weight ratio 'seems unusual for a man'.

I guess my worry is the absolute worst case scenario is this is a woman who is basically being bullied for not being pretty enough and being too good at boxing. If this were true how awful would that be. How cruel.

And if one of these.males kills a woman? Would that be cruel, or is that fair enough, just in case some feelings are hurt?

The worst case in the context of this specific media storm.

Not the worst case in the world. The worst case in the world of course would be a man killing a woman. Or a nuclear war.

Fair point on athletes having to prove things. Guess it’s part of the job isn’t it.

If this media storm doesn't.convince the IOC to ensure boxing is not mixed sex, then men will be punching women in the face. This will endanger womens lives. That is the specific worst outcome.