Can someone explain the Khelif controversy?

[whatsinanameisthis]

I’ll start by saying I’ve read all the major news outlets coverage of the Khelif controversy and am still somewhat baffled. So wondering if anyone who has done more research than I can enlighten me.

From what I’ve read in the papers, Khelif was born a girl, is female, has lived her whole life as a woman. She is not trans, or a man. However she maybe has a condition which leads to elevated testosterone?

I’m trying to understand what the accusation is…

Do we think she’s really a trans man who is lying about having been born female?

Or are we saying that if she is a woman but with a condition, that people with that condition should be screened and excluded from the event? I understand that would seem if the condition isn’t her fault but of course differently abled people are all excluded from the mainstream olympics and instead compete in the paralympics. Or if this condition is real (I simply don’t know enough to understand), could the IOC mandate it’s treated before competitors participate?

Or is this even a question of doping? Is there a suggestion she has been taking testosterone to improve her performance?

XY chromosomes are relevant here because it causes high levels of testosterone, which gives advantage over those with XX chromosomes irrespective of you call them male or female.

Current T levels are a bit of a red herring (other than levels in the male range being a complete giveaway). The advantage is gained from male puberty - longer reach, more punching power, more lean body mass, larger heart, bigger lung capacity etc.

But they'd have to know they had the condition. This debate is centering around a person who 'didn't know' they had XY chromosomes, but surprisingly were approached by a coach who spotted their 'physical qualities'.

Both these boxers are mid to late twenties. Failing to menstruate would have been a pretty obvious clue that they had a physical issue - so that would have been known for 10 years or more.

Plus both boxers had the opportunity to appeal to CAS - Lin didn’t, and Khelif withdrew an initial appeal before it could be heard (and details recorded / made public).

It's not clear to me why someone with Swyers Syndrome 'obviously' could not compete in the Olympics?

What I read said they 'run the risk ' of Osteoporosis because of the lack of certain hormones but it didn't indicate weather that was at any earlier stage than people normally run that risk ie in later years.

I'm sure someone on here will know.

Yes, I think that's my point (although slightly sarcastically phrased). There is the suggestion that these boxers were just 'normal women' who were amazed by the results of testing.

People with Swyers syndrome don't produce testosterone like males, so my very limited understanding is that they wouldn't go through male puberty and wouldn't have the male virilisation that both athletes display (build, musculature, Adams apple, nuchal ridge, etc).

Which seems to be why people are suggesting a more likely condition is 5ARD.

This issue just will not go away - the IOC needs to develop clear guidelines on DSDs, and swab for sex, to protect women and women's sports.

People with Swyers syndrome don't produce testosterone like males, so my very limited understanding is that they wouldn't go through male puberty and wouldn't have the male virilisation that both athletes display (build, musculature, Adams apple, nuchal ridge, etc).

Point taken and these athletes do display that.

But just to be clear no reason why they couldn't take part in the Olympics ?

Strangely it doesn't have quite the same tug at the heart strings if you say 'man who discovered in his mid teens that he was male not female continued to pursue a career in female sport' rather than 'women who was born and raised female and has participated in female sport for years is declared male by dodgy Russian funded organisation.'

But however much the boxer knew and at what point would be moot if the IOC bothered to protect the female category. At the moment their 'gender' policy is akin to saying we have strict weight categories but we have outlawed scales.

So these are two competitors that don't know until testing that they have xy chromosomes yes?

The narrative is that they grew up as girls, there was no investigation at puberty as to why they didn't get periods (someone speculated "normal for boxing". Hmm.)

So if they have Swyer and have only just found out, they've lived their whole lives with severely abnormal sex hormone levels. No/minimal testosterone, no/minimal oestrogen. Bones starting to really struggle due to zero hormone replacement in all that time. They're not boxers.

Exactly this. The sex/medical condition is a side story. What matters in sport is equal competition. The power and reach of these boxers mean they should be in a different category. Only sickos want to see a woman (or man) getting pummelled.

What happened to sportsMANship??

Thank you for your answer without jumping down my throat. This makes sense and I agree that there need to be clear guidelines on how to deal with athletes with DSD and swabbing.

I think it is difficult to identify what is accurate in the news. I think the information I have read about the Algerian indicates they were identfied as a female at birth which is why I am take the view they therefore are female as this was a decision by a medical professional and all the evidence points to the fact they are female. As far as the Taiwanese athlete is concerned I haven't seen any clear information either way - which isn't to say it isn't there its just that I can't find it.

I think this is different from the self ID females who choose to become female.

No. Two independent tests have shown they are male.

Bones starting to really struggle due to zero hormone replacement in all that time. They're not boxers.

@ditalini

So " bones starting to struggle " ? Sorry I'd just like clarity.

Unless they disclose everything we say is speculation I guess. Has it been confirmed they don’t have periods/it was never investigated? Maybe it was investigated then they started taking hormones as they wouldn’t look like an adult I assume without it (all assuming this is Swyer’s!)

Yes. It is different to self-id but I think you are wrong on your first point. Among babies with dsd it is fairly common for a male baby to be wrongly observed as female and the truth to come out later.

No sex hormones for your whole adult life is like menopause, but you didn't even start puberty. Didn't build up that healthy bone as a young woman because you've got no oestrogen to help do it.

Oestrogen is really important for women's bone health.

Also "all the evidence points to female"? Do you mean the passport? Of course this could easily be issued in line with the birth certificate but that's not evidence of actual sex.

@Nothingeverything I don't know enough about later changes and haven't read about that. I think it is terribly sad of the individuals but presumably a male identified at birth would have the relevant genitalia which is clear

I feel the situation is very sad

I agree that a passport would just confirm what a birth certificate would say

No, I think you have misunderstood. It is common for a baby to seem female at birth but it becomes clear he is male later on. I agree it is a sad situation.

*No sex hormones for your whole adult life is like menopause, but you didn't even start puberty. Didn't build up that healthy bone as a young woman because you've got no oestrogen to help do it.

Oestrogen is really important for women's bone health.*

I get that. And I can see the problem leading possibly to EVENTUAL osteoporosis.

But I can't see anywhere why someone couldn't compete in the Olympics with this issue.

However as was pointed out these people LOOK like they've gone through a male puberty.

@ditalini

As I understand it undiagnosed and therefore untreated Swyers wouldn't produce periods because there wouldn't be the necessary hormones.

Not necessarily. In the UK you can get a passport in the opposite sex with a doctors letter and proof of name change.

If the country’s government was keen to get an Olympic medal then issuing someone with a passport different to their birth certificate would be a lot more straightforward than mass doping countries have indulged in in the post.

Well generally girls with low oestrogen are at risk of bone fragility. These particular undiagnosed girls would be at great risk as this isn't just temporary low oestrogen from anorexia etc, they would never have had oestrogen to build strong bones. It doesn't take decades.

As you say - this is completely moot in this case since they clearly do have testosterone that their bodies are using, from whatever source.

Babies with ambiguous genitals are often identified as female at birth. Where there is access to modern testing further investigations are made so factual rather than assumption based sex can be determined but when this further screening isn't available the default position is often that no obvious penis equals female.
This may be corrected, it may be discovered to be incorrect when they undergo male puberty or only be detected when a lack of any apparent puberty is investigated. I suppose it is theoretically possible that someone shows no sign of male or female puberty and doesn't have any investigations done, but for this to happen while pursuing an elite sporting career seems very very unlikely.