Help me present evidence to my son

[AlbertaWildRose]

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish could you explain what you mean by "single gender" spaces? What would they be labelled/signed as? How would people know if they were eligible to use them?

That's not anti trans, that's anti India Willoughby.

India Willoughby was a well known male journalist until late middle age before deciding to transition. India Willoughby has fathered three children. India Willoughby now appears to be spending retirement permanently online being aggressive and abusive towards women, JK Rowling first and foremost. Pink News has even quoted some of the abusive things India Willoughby has said to and about JK Rowling in the article you linked to, all of which were far more unacceptable than calling a male person a male (fact) fantasist (opinion).

India Willoughby also made a big song and dance on Twitter about rejecting a gender neutral toilet in an airport and going in search of a female only one to use, thus rather undermining the "we just want to pee" argument and demonstrating that if we build it (it being additional spaces for trans people), they will not come. Because the whole point is being in women's spaces, whether women are OK with that or not.

It's not transphobic to call a male person male. It's factual. And it's not abusive to hit back at someone who has been relentlessly harassing you on Twitter for literally years. It's a very understandable human reaction.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, no, JK Rowling doesn't believe trans women are women. Neither do I. Neither do the majority of people. It is not transphobic to not believe trans women are women, any more than it is Islamophobic to not worship Allah.

Yeah and straight men also rape lizards and shag couches 🙄
It's the lowest bar you could sink to in an argument about gender ideology and it's wholly unnecessary. If you find a straight man that is attracted to trans women how does that help your point? We know there are men who define themselves as straight who date or are attracted to TW and I don't think that's a compelling argument against GC beliefs. If you find a straight man who isn't attracted to you, does that make you not a woman? Of course not. The majority of straight men are attracted to a pretty narrow gender stereotype of women that we have seen rammed down women's throats for decades that they should confirm to. There aren't swathes of straight men attracted to butch or GNC women, and it makes no difference to those womens' sex.
It's just such a self own to think a gotcha question to a man who says TWAW is "oh but would you date/fuck this person?" All your doing is perpetuating gender stereotypes that men desiring you makes you feminine.

That’s very aggressive and there is a direct quote there

the aim is put fear into that community

Pink News supports diversity in gender and sexuality against prejudice

Exactly

I agree it's grim but it does often reveal the hypocrisy. I have a male gay friend who says tmam- but he wouldn't date one.

If it came across as aggressive it's because I'm sick to death if women hating articles in the Pink News.

I'm old enough to remember

Men who are attracted to trans women are not straight.

The point is, if a man who very much is straight, and claims that trans women are women, would not have sex with one under any circumstances, it's worth examining why that is.

Some men might say they are not attracted to black women and would not have sex with a black woman in any circumstances because her black skin is something he finds unattractive. Different people have different views about whether that is inherently racist or whether it's just a normal part of being attracted to certain physical characteristics and not others. Some men might say they are not attracted to overweight women and would not have sex with a woman whose BMI is over 25 in any circumstances because they only find slim women attractive. But if a man says he would not date or have sex with a trans woman under any circumstances because he's not attracted to penises/Adam's apples/deep voices, well, those are the same reasons he's not attracted to men, which would suggest that he does actually see trans women as men.

No you represent the silent majority of sensible caring women

If it came across as aggressive it's because I'm sick to death of women hating articles in the Pink News.

I'm old enough to remember when Pink News was an important voice, standing up for the rights of gay men and lesbians who were a genuinely marginalised community in a largely homophobic society.

It's fallen a long way since then.

(accidentally pressed "send" too soon on my previous post).

No debate she isn’t me and I W can answer for herself and she doesn’t represent all trans women or anyone but herself, JK is not picking on her but all trans people.

many trans men were mums believe it or not

Yeah but that doesn't really mean anything does it? If you have another man who says tmam and would date one, then what? We've already seen that there are lesbians who would date TW and lesbians who wouldn't. It's all irrelevant - sex isn't defined by desirability.

That's also pretty much JK Rowling's position.

"No you represent the silent majority of sensible caring women"

How on earth do you know what the "silent" majority of women think? Why is it caring to agree with the idea that some male people are women? Why is it un-caring/nonsensical to disagree with that?

Stonewall was a riot and trans women were at the forefront, they don’t forget their sisters.

I swear I cannot remember any anti women articles in PN

Hang on a second, she was saying that there should be single sex spaces and additional spaces trans people can use, which I think is what the sensible majority thinks.

The only difference between the sensible majority and Team TERF is that Team TERF has actually been paying attention when trans activists say they don't want additional spaces and would not use them if they existed, but would continue to use women's spaces whether women like it or not.

Apologies, please ignore the previous post! Read and replied too hastily. Agree that the majority would agree that separate spaces are the solution, but somehow that's never what people are campaigning for.

I must have misunderstood where you were coming from in seeking to support your comment

Well then can you link to an example of her picking on all trans people rather than one of her basically telling India Willoughby to stuff it in response to abuse from India Willoughby?

No you're not a monster I think you're very kind.

The are enough women who do not under any circumstance want a biological man in their single sex spaces to warrant excluding men from entering.

How would your suggestion work? We have 1 space for biological men? Then 1 space for biological women? What is a single gender space and who would use it?

Genuinely trying to understand how this would work.

You will never be satisfied with anything that makes your prejudiced leader look bad.

I will be satisfied with someone linking to an actual example of her being transphobic and explaining why it is actually transphobic.

I must have asked hundreds of people to do this and not one has ever provided an example. Not one.

Ask him to tell you what a woman is without using the word woman or female.

Ask him what you are - and if any TW can do that.

I feel sorry for any woman he ends up with tbh.

This is my issue with 3rd spaces. Absolutely great if it keeps men from entering women's spaces I'm all for it. But The TRA/MRA argue that TWAW and should be able to use female spaces.

My main priority is keeping men out of female spaces.

Or as Kathleen Stock says explain what a woman is to a non English speaker.