Help me present evidence to my son

[AlbertaWildRose]

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish I would love to know what you have seen from your friends about being a woman, that isn't based on stereotypes? What could that be, as I can't imagine what sort of thing you're referring to.

I wonder what your transwomen friends have in common with every female woman (what a stupid phrase) on the planet that they don't share with all the male men?

A male who describes themselves as a woman is either doing so because they reject the concept of being a man or boy, or they are describing themselves based on their personal concept of what being a female means. And they have no experience of being a female at all. So they have to conceptualise it. Based on their personal perceptions of women. Or rejecting what they conceptualise a 'man or boy' means to them.

To shape this conceptualisation, they can only ever do this based on them describing what they believe is 'typical' feelings or decisions or actions. How do they 'conceptualise', surely the only way to do that is to assign 'gender stereotypes' to what they believe shapes being a girl or woman.

Whereas, the only commonality to being a girl or a woman, is not based on deciding what actions / feelings / decisions etc constitutes as being one a girl vs boy or woman vs man makes. It purely is based on how that girl or woman reacts to life's experiences of having a female sexed body. ie. Something that no male claiming an identity as a girl or woman can experience.

I cannot see this claiming of being girl or woman as being anything but misogynistic in this instance. Because it is a male person using their own concept of what being a female human is to suit their own needs. And that is to destabilise the definition of the words that female people need to describe themselves as a unique group.

How can it be anything but misogyny.

Ive tried to answer this before on this thread, but its difficult because im not trans and so i dont think i can really answer it properly because its not in my realm of experience. I do know that she says she always felt this way, and cant remember not feeling that she was a woman.
Its hard to look at this in isolation because all of us have lived in a society that uses (and can weaponise) stereotypes against both sexes so how much has my experience as a woman not also be informed by society and stereotypes? I'm sure her's has too. Its such a complicated question i dont think i can actually answer it properly, id rather a trans woman did.
sorry, i know thats an unsatisfying response.

Well, it's an odd response given that you'd just claimed that you'd seen it for yourself and it definitely isn't just stereotypes.

How can someone who isn't a woman (adult human female) know what it is to be a woman? The feeling that they say they've always had, why did they decide that's what women feel like and so they must be a woman? Why not consider other possibilities, that are actually possible? Like being an unconventional man.

If it's not observable and not something you can explain to others, then what is it?? And why should anyone else value it?

"how much has my experience as a woman not also be informed by society and stereotype" - I would hope that you wouldn't say that it was the application of those stereotypes and cultural expectations that actually make you female though? Women are discriminated against because they are female not because they're a group of otherwise random people who've had feminine socialisation applied to them.

@Christinapple

Please would you let me know:

• exactly what the higher levels of testosterone you are referring to are when you say “higher levels”?

• the normal female range for testosterone, and the normal range for women with PCOS. (Please exclude women with tumours.)

• if you agree it would be fine for a wa female athlete to dose herself with testosterone if she were going to compete against women who had not?

i didnt mean to express that it wasnt observable or explainable - just that i dont think i am the right person to explain it. I also dont know what its like to live as a woman of colour, so im the wrong person to explain this because its not something I can truly understand.

I feel like I'm being asked to speak on behalf of people, which wasnt how this thread started and not something i would ever do

If I were you I wouldn't make comparisons, even if only implied, between being a transwoman and being a woman of colour. Women of colour are women and have the same shared experience of being in the world with a female body as all other women.

I think the question is valid though - i just think it would be best to ask Trans women? otherwise we are all just assuming knowledge that we don't have? Its a shame that the discussion becomes very combative, because these kinds of questions aren't ever discussed without threads moving to a "debate" (debates can and should be had, but i also think there should be space for learning too)

But you clearly see or understand something that makes you consider that they are women, like all women you've come across before. Why? That's all.

it wasnt meant as a comparison of experience, it was purely based on my ability to talk for people. We could sub anyone in that sentence who isnt me, sorry if that wasnt clear.

not "like all women ive come across before" - ive been very clear on that

If you're going to put the transwomen you know into the same grouping as women, which includes all women in the world, now and in the past and in the future, what is it that they share with all women for it to make sense that they belong in that grouping?

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish

You can't speak to a MCW's experience. So how can a MCW speak to women's experiences, then?
How can they possibly know what a woman "feels like" or whether that is even what they are feeling?

yep.

The inconsistency is very clear. It simply doesn't matter that a male might feel that they have always been a girl/woman but the blunt reality is that they have no fucking idea. How the fuck can they? They have never had to deal with the only commonality between female people - dealing with a female body and all that entails in today's society. It doesn't even stand up to logic.

Anti trans ballrooms?

I agree we need proper rational debate. However, I do think if you come on here and say you see no issue with non violent men who identify as not men being housed in a women's prison you will be asked to explain your reasoning.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen on Mumsnet. Do you honestly believe that it's my responsibility to make sure he picks a path I approve of? I'm his mother, not his mind controller. I am going to gently educate him, not make participation in my life conditional. He of course does not support the attack of women, and is learning how the TWAW movement affects us. He is a smart guy and I believe he will come around with time, but alienating him in the meantime and destroying our relationship is not the way to go.

@AlbertaWildRose o thought the same. Going that way imposes a belief demand, which would make you as unreasonable as the TRAs who say failure to accept TWAW is a form of transgender bigotry.