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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me present evidence to my son

595 replies

AlbertaWildRose · 02/08/2024 00:17

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

OP posts:
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Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 05:32

Catsmere · 02/08/2024 03:29

I’d be telling him misogynists aren’t welcome to live with me

i think the OP had a genuine request for advice with her son, don't be so flippant. We don't kick our kids out for disagreements, and there's nothing in the OP to suggest he's been out of order.

cupcaske123 · 02/08/2024 05:41

Christinapple · 02/08/2024 02:17

"How about the fight at the Olympics?"

You mean the fight between a woman and a woman with higher-than-normal levels of testosterone? Probably not the best example.

"Men masturbating and putting cameras in women changing rooms and toilets."

Implying trans women are only trans so they can enter women's facilities to commit sex crimes is a transphobic trope. There is nothing stopping cisgender men simply walking as-is into a woman's bathroom to do what you mentioned, so there is no reason at all for a man to go through the whole process of a sex change.

You mean the fight between a woman and a woman with higher-than-normal levels of testosterone? Probably not the best example.

You're under the illusion it was two women. One had men's chromosomes and had been banned to fight against women because they failed a gender test.

Implying trans women are only trans so they can enter women's facilities to commit sex crimes is a transphobic trope. There is nothing stopping cisgender men simply walking as-is into a woman's bathroom to do what you mentioned, so there is no reason at all for a man to go through the whole process of a sex change.

The majority of Transwomen don't go through a sex change, they simply declare themselves women. That means it's easy for men to enter women's spaces.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 05:53

cupcaske123 · 02/08/2024 05:41

You mean the fight between a woman and a woman with higher-than-normal levels of testosterone? Probably not the best example.

You're under the illusion it was two women. One had men's chromosomes and had been banned to fight against women because they failed a gender test.

Implying trans women are only trans so they can enter women's facilities to commit sex crimes is a transphobic trope. There is nothing stopping cisgender men simply walking as-is into a woman's bathroom to do what you mentioned, so there is no reason at all for a man to go through the whole process of a sex change.

The majority of Transwomen don't go through a sex change, they simply declare themselves women. That means it's easy for men to enter women's spaces.

She hadn't been banned from olympics, so in fairness to her she hasn't actually broken any rules. I do think the anger here needs to be redirected to the IOC rather than an individual

cupcaske123 · 02/08/2024 05:59

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 05:53

She hadn't been banned from olympics, so in fairness to her she hasn't actually broken any rules. I do think the anger here needs to be redirected to the IOC rather than an individual

The boxer was banned and then reinstated. Due to physical differences it was not a level playing field, as demonstrated and they shouldn't have fought. A trans boxer broke the skull of a woman not too long ago. A woman could die.

MoveToParis · 02/08/2024 06:11

you cant extrapolate from a sub-group of a population by saying the behaviour of trans criminals is applicable to all trans people?

bit of a sleight of hand there. In the case of trans women in prison we are not looking at a sample but the whole population (of trans women in prison). It sounds like you think there is a case for trans women being in the female estate, can I check whether you actually think that. Do you think it is reasonable to have a blanket ban on all trans women from the female estate, in the same way as all men are.

OldCrone · 02/08/2024 06:13

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 05:21

i take your point, but i disagree
Its not "not all men" (which i detest as a phrase, because male violence is a genuine and measurable issue, systemic and embedded in power structures and institutions) And i am completely supportive of single sex spaces (and also separate/additional single gender spaces) because of this
Its more a "based on data, where is the threat?" and interpretation of the data of offenders in prison shows a trend, but this isnt a reasonable sample. you cant extrapolate from a sub-group of a population by saying the behaviour of trans criminals is applicable to all trans people? There just isnt compelling evidence for me to fear the trans community as a whole, and certainly not more than straight men. And, as i said before, i have trans friends of all ages from 20-70 so ive prob got an implicit bias there too, which i'll totally accept might colour my view

Men who are now referred to as "transwomen" were previously called crossdressers, transvestites or transsexuals. The older terms were clearly associated with a sexual motive. Not necessarily criminal, but definitely sexual. There is no reason to believe that the motive for transition has changed, just because the terminology used is different.

There just isnt compelling evidence for me to fear the trans community as a whole, and certainly not more than straight men.

Is there any compelling evidence that men who pretend to be women (or pretend to pretend to be women) are less of a threat to women than any other men are? Bearing in mind the sexual motive behind "transition", particularly for older, heterosexual males, this seems unlikely.

This is an interesting read about the links between transvestic fetishism/ AGP and criminal sexual behaviour.
https://x.com/sappholives83/status/1816266309555884491

WarriorN · 02/08/2024 06:14

@Christinapple the athletes involved never had a testosterone test, only chromosome tests which disqualified them from female sports. Aka male.

PortiasBiscuit · 02/08/2024 06:15

Just avoid the subject, you can’t argue with 18. Hopefully he’ll learn.

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 06:20

AlbertaWildRose · 02/08/2024 00:17

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

Best answer so far is the pp recommending that video of a teacher and student.

Definitely also get him to explain stuff to you, as pps have suggested. Just keep mirroring his answers.

And also agree about making scenarios personal to you or to him, with the caveat that if he has drunk the Kool-Aid, he won't think women matter and that might (temporarily) include you. So might be quite painful for you.

AthenaWhite · 02/08/2024 06:27

Honestly, just don't talk about it unless the issue comes up. Don't avoid it either. My daughter is twaw, there really is no other position at that age. she is autistic and gay, the only lesbians she knows are males attracted to females, it's ridiculous. Luckily we have moved through the phase where she wants to mutilate her healthy body, hopefully.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish it's really interesting reading your view point. You seem to understand male violence at the same time as you are arguing for a subset of men to have unfettered access to women and girls. Do you have evidence that men who claim to be women offend at a lower rate than all the other men? They don't by the way.

It's not so much Not All Men more Not My Nigel.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 06:27

MoveToParis · 02/08/2024 06:11

you cant extrapolate from a sub-group of a population by saying the behaviour of trans criminals is applicable to all trans people?

bit of a sleight of hand there. In the case of trans women in prison we are not looking at a sample but the whole population (of trans women in prison). It sounds like you think there is a case for trans women being in the female estate, can I check whether you actually think that. Do you think it is reasonable to have a blanket ban on all trans women from the female estate, in the same way as all men are.

good question - no i don't believe that trans women who are jailed for sexual offences should be housed in low security prisons with women (but thankfully they arent! they have supervision orders, etc as pat of the risk assessments made when they are admitted) But yes, i actually don't have a problem with trans women in for non violent crimes being in women's prisons. i know that will be in opposition to a lot of people here.
I also dont have a massive issue with some refuges working with trans women, when there are also single sex refuges in the same area.

AthenaWhite · 02/08/2024 06:27

...or Nigella

FunnyLady27 · 02/08/2024 06:27

Please just explain to me why Women and Girls as a Group (ie half the population) have to Give Up their hard and long won places and rights, in order to accommodate a tiny proportion of Men that claim to feel like women (they can’t and never will be able to), can you answer that question please ? Why do I as a woman have to change everything about my life I have lived for over 60 years be erased and made nul and void for the accommodation of these Men?

FunnyLady27 · 02/08/2024 06:31

I dont know if Im even writing to the correct post, I dont post much, Im fuming, who is this bloke? Or is it a woman, ok for men to be in women’s prisons if they not convicted of a violent crime, wow Im fuming, I need to go onto furry cats and dogs to calm down. Save us from people with minds like this!

AthenaWhite · 02/08/2024 06:32

So many women do not understand how many women have been affected by male violence and would be made uncomfortable by men in women's spaces. It is cruel, almost as if they cannot see women and girls as real people with real feelings who deserve a few things just for them.

llamajohn · 02/08/2024 06:34

Christinapple · 02/08/2024 02:17

"How about the fight at the Olympics?"

You mean the fight between a woman and a woman with higher-than-normal levels of testosterone? Probably not the best example.

"Men masturbating and putting cameras in women changing rooms and toilets."

Implying trans women are only trans so they can enter women's facilities to commit sex crimes is a transphobic trope. There is nothing stopping cisgender men simply walking as-is into a woman's bathroom to do what you mentioned, so there is no reason at all for a man to go through the whole process of a sex change.

NO-ONE CAN CHANGE SEX.

AthenaWhite · 02/08/2024 06:37

I am a survivor of male violence and sometimes I struggle to go into a shop if the teller is male. I will always pick the female, or I just squash my discomfort down low and slap a smile on my face. So many women are like me, too many. We are slowly losing all the spaces that allowed us to access public space or we just have to suck up our discomfort as single sex spaces become mixed or admit a special subset of men.

I just wish people could find some empathy and compassion for women but I guess men and their feelings will always be deemed more important.

Perfect28 · 02/08/2024 06:37

How about not worrying about it?

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 06:38

AthenaWhite · 02/08/2024 06:37

I am a survivor of male violence and sometimes I struggle to go into a shop if the teller is male. I will always pick the female, or I just squash my discomfort down low and slap a smile on my face. So many women are like me, too many. We are slowly losing all the spaces that allowed us to access public space or we just have to suck up our discomfort as single sex spaces become mixed or admit a special subset of men.

I just wish people could find some empathy and compassion for women but I guess men and their feelings will always be deemed more important.

💐
And a big hug.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 06:39

OldCrone · 02/08/2024 06:13

Men who are now referred to as "transwomen" were previously called crossdressers, transvestites or transsexuals. The older terms were clearly associated with a sexual motive. Not necessarily criminal, but definitely sexual. There is no reason to believe that the motive for transition has changed, just because the terminology used is different.

There just isnt compelling evidence for me to fear the trans community as a whole, and certainly not more than straight men.

Is there any compelling evidence that men who pretend to be women (or pretend to pretend to be women) are less of a threat to women than any other men are? Bearing in mind the sexual motive behind "transition", particularly for older, heterosexual males, this seems unlikely.

This is an interesting read about the links between transvestic fetishism/ AGP and criminal sexual behaviour.
https://x.com/sappholives83/status/1816266309555884491

I agree that the umbrella term of "trans" is very unhelpful here, because when i talk about trans women i dont include crossdressers/men who enjoy dressing as women but i understand that this falls under that umbrella term.
That's actually a really good point that i hadnt considered, i use "trans" pretty much exclusively for trasngender people and thats who i am thinking of when i discuss this

i will take that on board, thank you

whiteroseredrose · 02/08/2024 06:39

One of my friends has always been very 'kind' TWAW. But we have now reached an agreement that maybe they aren't. Our discussion was around safe spaces for women.

As a probation officer she agreed that 75% of violent crime and 95 or 97% of sexual crime is committed by men. ONS statistics I think.

This is certainly not all men. But unfortunately we can't tell who is a danger just by looking.

From my genetics studies waaay back in the 1980s one thing that stuck with me was that some very violent male criminals actually had XYY chromosomes. So the Y chromosome is significant.

We agreed that our lovely husbands could physically restrain us / physically hurt us if they chose and in the moment there would be very little we could do about it.

So even if a male that believes that they are female in their head, they are still anatomically, physiologically and genetically male so are no less of a danger to women than any male.

So while we agree that life can be difficult for men who feel that they are not stereotypically masculine and identify more with stereotypically feminine behaviours they should not be allowed into places where women are vulnerable. So not into changing rooms, prisons, women's hospital wards etc. (Because they aren't actually women!).

I personally think that men claiming to be women is bonkers bobbins but for the point of the discussion I took it gently!!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/08/2024 06:49

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 04:48

honestly, ive listened to a lot of these arguments before and i always consider anything that is put to me. A lot of the discussion tends to ask me to judge an entire group by the very worst behaviour of some, and i wouldnt expect every middle aged white man to be a paedophile so it seems inherently unfair to ask me to expect every trans woman to be a predator and limit their rights accordingly. And i'm also a scientist, so i like data. The current laws regarding self ID have been in place since 2010 and we havent seen a spike/increase in the types of crime/behaviour that are often used in these arguments, but we have seen a massive increase in media coverage. Plus i have trans friends who ive known for decades, so its perhaps a bit less "abstract" and more personal?

im not so arrogant as to assume im right and other's are wrong, but thats just where my life and my reasoning has landed. Im always open to changing my mind if there's a new view i havent thought of/new evidence i havent seen

The post you were referring to, the second post on this thread, is a factual list of things that have happened. It is not asking you to judge an entire group by the worst behaviour of some members of it. It is literally just stating things that have happened to women and girls, which were made possible because the global political establishment has imposed the idea that trans women are women on us.

Nobody thinks every white middle aged man is a paedophile (or every middle aged man of any other ethnicity, for that matter). But we do, as a society, accept that it is appropriate to keep all middle aged men out of spaces where teenage girls are getting changed. Consider a middle aged man who is a PE teacher, for example. The nicest, gentlest, kindest teacher you have ever met. Clearly he has no criminal record because he had to get an enhanced DBS check in order to get his job. He still stays out of the girls' changing rooms, for multiple reasons. For safeguarding reasons, yes. To protect the girls. But also to protect him from malicious allegations of improper behaviour. And also for the dignity and comfort of everyone concerned.

Who else is not allowed in the girls' changing rooms? Well, the boys, obviously. Again, for reasons of safety. We don't think that all or even most teenage boys are going to sexually assault their female classmates, but we know it's a risk so we keep these spaces single sex. As with the male teacher, it's not just for their safety, but also for their dignity and comfort. Because for teenagers going through puberty (at differing rates), it's often uncomfortable enough getting changed in front of classmates of the same sex, without adding classmates of the opposite sex into the mix.

Then there's girls and women with particular vulnerabilities to consider. Conservative Muslims whose religion simply will not permit them to be in a shared changing space with members of the opposite sex and will be forced to self exclude if they cannot trust that these spaces are single sex.

Survivors of rape and sexual assault who are afraid of men and feel unavoidably triggered by the presence of a male bodied person. This may be the case in a changing room, but is even more the case in a rape support group, where, by definition, every single person there will be a rape survivor, and have been raped by a male person. The Equality Act even recognises that this is one situation where it would be both legal and justifiable to exclude even trans women who have a gender recognition certificate from a women only service. It's written there, in the legislation, in black and white, as an example of when service providers should be able to rely on the single sex exemptions. And yet rape crisis organisations up and down the country are refusing to provide female only services and insisting that everything must be fully trans inclusive because the existence of female only support groups suggests that trans women aren't real women and is therefore inherently transphobic.

Having empathy for the women and girls in these situations, the women and girls who were the victims of the events described in the post you found unconvincing, does not require you to judge all trans people by the actions of the very worst of them. It simply requires you to think about why single sex spaces and services exist(ed) in the first places and what the potential consequences are if you make them mixed sex. And the presence of even one member of the opposite sex, however they identify, makes that space a mixed sex space as far as many of its users are concerned.

It does bear repeating that all of the things in the second post are things that have actually happened. So if your position is that most trans people are harmless, whilst I would agree with that, I would be interested to know exactly how many women and girls you think it's OK to harm before we say there's a problem and we need to find a better way of balancing everyone's rights and needs. A way of accommodating trans people without compromising the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls.

I would conclude by pointing out, as well, that from a safeguarding perspective, if you take the view that anyone who says they are a woman is one, literally anyone can be a woman just by saying they are. There's no purity test. When we allow trans women into women's spaces we're not asking for proof that they are using cross sex hormones or have had their penis removed, or plan to do so, or have been diagnosed with gender dysphoria by a doctor, or have obtained a gender recognition certificate or are in the process of getting one. Such a system would be unworkable anyway. We are taking it on trust that they are genuine.

And the problem with that is twofold. Firstly, they may not be genuine. If your nice trans friends can walk freely into women's spaces then so can Isla Bryson or even Levi Bellfield the day they get released from prison. There is no practical way of allowing some biologically male people into women's spaces and excluding the rest. So if you are letting some in you are actually letting all of them in, whether they are trans or not and whether they are dangerous or not. And secondly, even if they are genuine, the female users of that space have no way of knowing that. For a Muslim or a rape survivor, whether they are genuine or not may not even make any difference because their presence is still enough to ensure that she can no longer use that space. And for the rest of us, we just have to be on our guard, managing our own discomfort, not wanting to be transphobic but at the same time hyper aware that someone in that space is male and can therefore physically overpower and assault us should they choose to do so, and hoping that that is not their intention.

Ultimately, single sex spaces exist for a particular purpose, and allowing anyone to identify into them regardless of their sex completely undermines that purpose. You may as well make all spaces mixed sex and be done with it. At least then you'd have to acknowledge that you are excluding women who can't use mixed sex spaces from participating fully in society, instead of pretending that that is not what you are doing.

If you are a good faith poster, I hope my reply has given you some pause for thought. But honestly, I am just shaking my head at anyone who can read the second post in this thread - which is simply listing factual examples of things that have happened to women and girls - and dismiss it as bigotry. That, to me, is an indication that you don't see the problem because don't want to see it and are doing everything you can to make sure you don't see it.

OldCrone · 02/08/2024 06:49

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 02/08/2024 06:39

I agree that the umbrella term of "trans" is very unhelpful here, because when i talk about trans women i dont include crossdressers/men who enjoy dressing as women but i understand that this falls under that umbrella term.
That's actually a really good point that i hadnt considered, i use "trans" pretty much exclusively for trasngender people and thats who i am thinking of when i discuss this

i will take that on board, thank you

What do you mean by "transgender" people? I understand "trans" and "transgender" to mean the same thing: the people we used to call transvestites or transsexuals.

Runor · 02/08/2024 07:03

OP, you could ask what he means by believing that transwomen are women? Either that means that he believes people can actually change sex (unlikely?) or that he is using a definition of the word ‘woman’ which doesn’t mean adult human female. How does he define ‘woman’? If he is depending on inner feelings, how does he categorise those adult human females who don’t recognise those feelings?

LittlePinkStars, I’d be really interested in your answer to this too as it seems to be the crux of why I don’t understand a TWAW position (please note, as it sometimes seems to need to be spelled out, I believe that transpeople should, of course, be able to live without fear or discrimination, and should have access to spaces and services etc which meet their needs)

Peonies12 · 02/08/2024 07:04

Why not leave your adult son to develop his own opinions. He’s entitled to that.