Help me present evidence to my son

[AlbertaWildRose]

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

It's great that you don't have a problem with men found quilty of non-violent crimes being housed with women but perhaps we should ask these women how they feel about it.

Given female prisoners are more likely to have histories of sexual and violent abuse at the hands of men I'm thinking that perhaps they might not want to be locked up with men.

this is a lot

if you look at what ive said you'll see im absolutely pro-single sex spaces and think they're important, but personally am ok with single gender spaces too. i would think offering both would be best, but i think ive already said that i see a tension between the protected characteristics of sex and gender reassignment that needs actually sorting out by legal bodies so organisations are able to meet both group's needs

Ive also agreed that TW in prison for violent or sexual offences shouldnt be with women without a secure supervision/safeguarding plan

i also agree that both trans women and women with DSD/chromosomal dysfunction should not compete in most female sports

i also agree that people cant change sex

im not sure we actually differ that much, except that my societal definition of "womanhood" is wider so i don't have a massive issue with referring to trans women as "she" and including them in a gender (not sex) grouping?

I honestly don't know what a "single gender" space would be or what it's purpose would be. Do you mean mixed sex spaces? Or do you really mean that "single gender" spaces would exclude people who don't consider themselves to have a "gender identity" or exclude them if they don't conform to sufficient gendered norms?

I don't understand why women in prison should have to put up with the presence of males in a space they can't leave or control. It's like an additional punishment for them.

What isn’t happening? Thousands of transgender women you never hear about in quiet respectable lives? Perhaps you don’t notice them going about their business hurting no one. That’s not a movement. That’s just humans trying to live without the fear that hatred is creating.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish
i actually don't have a problem with trans women in for non violent crimes being in women's prisons

What do you mean by this?

Do you support biological men being locked in a space with vulnerable women?

Or do you support women when we say we do not want biological men, however they present or identify, and regardless of what certificates they have, in our single sex spaces?

I work on a project with a TW. Im
sure they would say they’re going about their business not hurting anyone but

• I am required to refer to an obvious man as she & her so I’m being compelled to lie
• he refers ti himself as a lesbian colonising a category to which he doesn’t belong
• At work events he uses the women’s toilets
• he’s on a regional working group set up to look at issues affecting women representing women

his idea of quietly going about his life & the actual impact of what he’s doing are vastly different

It wasn't a woman with high levels of testosterone though, was it 😡

Littlepinkstarsbyradish
Thanks for engaging thus far.

I have to say the conversations you had with your friend Laura could have been had with any man or woman who doesn't like pressure to conform to gender stereotypes.

im not sure we actually differ that much, except that my societal definition of "womanhood" is wider
Socially, women are treated differently from men.
Example: A comic called Arabella Weir (apologies if you know who I mean, I don't know how old you are) had a running sketch called Women Who Men Don't Hear. Loads of women related.
Women's biology also gives them different experiences. Not all women have all the same biological experiences, but no men do. How can a man who claims to be a woman (MCW) claim to have common ground in terms of an experience of womanhood?
Example: I have no children. I once asked a friend what contractions felt like. She said it was like the worst period pain. Which meant something to me, since I had experienced periods.

so i don't have a massive issue with referring to trans women as "she" and including them in a gender (not sex) grouping?

What is the point of a societal definition of women that includes male people?
Why would we need to group women and MCWs? What purpose would it serve for women?

I would be going down the ‘I’m disappointed about your lack of integrity and critical thinking in your blindness to support misogyny’ route.

Yes, you don’t want to alienate or shame him, but equally with teenagers sometimes you need to be the grown up in the room to hold their respect.

You can do it in a non-confrontational way but you need to assert authority and tell him -on repeat ad nauseum that:

• no-one can change sex - fact (what ever he argues back - ‘no, sorry son you’re wrong’)
• men as a sex class have all the power and commit most of the sexual and violent crime
• Tw are male and if they are asserting themselves into women’s spaces/sports/award categories etc then that is the height of misogyny
• once you let one male bodied person in, you let them all in.

I would also just keep repeating that his views are misogynistic. That will irk him but he needs to be, kindly, put in his place. ‘As a parent you can call me a terf, but it’s my duty to point out your misogyny - you’re only 12. I’d hate to think you were going away to uni on a few years with those attitudes toward women…’

A lot of the discussion tends to ask me to judge an entire group by the very worst behaviour of some, and i wouldnt expect every middle aged white man to be a paedophile so it seems inherently unfair to ask me to expect every trans woman to be a predator and limit their rights accordingly.

And that's exactly why we have safeguarding - not because all men are predators, but because most predators are men. That doesn't change because they're wearing a dress. Do you think trans people should have the right to bypass safeguarding?

This movement is particularly insidious and terrifying because it inserts a wedge between children and their parents. Historically there are many movements that have done that, and they are not good ones.

He probably cannot hear you, because, as @DaisysChains above said, he is male. And young.

My ds is all over "be kind" - he seems to need to support/protect his (vulnerable) trans friends rather than his mother. Which is painful. It hurts when I am seen as the enemy even though he acknowledges that I have always welcomed, supported and accepted him and all his friends just as they are.

I avoid the subject, but it is he who brings it up. This is odd - it obviously bothers him - and I wish we didn't have this (the only subject) which is a difficulty between us in our relationship. However I have lived my woman's life, I know how being a girl and then a woman has shaped all my experiences, and I cannot change that because he wants me to, however much I love him.

Arguing didn't work. When I tried it to start with, his reaction was surprisingly emotional and over the top. It was more like a toddler's, and I think that is because the cognitive dissonance is just too much to cope with.

JKR is transphobic even though he has never read what she has written. Etc etc. It makes no sense. He has a higher degree, and in no other area of his life would he believe things without looking at the evidence. And yes, I did point that out (see previous para!).

The only thing that has cut through is sport. Even he sees that is unfair (did I mention he is male?).

Other than that, when he brings the subject up, I either just ask a question and then leave it, or explain how it affects me personally from my own experience of men and then leave it.

The things that he has gone quiet on include:

Me explaining why I would not be able to undress in front of a stranger with a male body, no matter how they identified.

Asking him why women's spaces were created in the first place. Saying that I hope his female friends don't ever have the kind of experiences at the hands of men that would make them realise why they need them - fighting fire with fire.

The unfairness that results. That to have eg three outdoor ponds in London where people with male bodies can now use all of them but many women (religion/culture/sexual abuse history) can't use any seems really unfair, even though women themselves set up their own pool a hundred or so years ago.

Simply saying that women and girls should be allowed to have their own spaces/sports/boundaries if they want them and we can't give away consent on behalf of others.

Sorry it's an essay.

This could potentially be a good approach.

I think a lot of boys and men just unthinkingly say "TWAW" because they believe it's the progressive view to hold but they have literally no idea what it feels like to actually live as a woman. They haven't been socialised to always put others' needs first, as women and girls have. So if you can get them to a place of empathy where they can at least try to imagine what it must feel like to be a woman, to deal with all the various female biological functions that women have as well as the need for constant vigilance around men, if you can get them to imagine themselves in a woman's shoes for a minute and think about what it might be like to be her, they might start realise that in that situation they wouldn't want to "be kind" at the expense of their own rights.

Whereas women and girls, in theory, should understand full well what it actually means to live as a woman and why a trans woman isn't one. Why a woman might take a "TWAW" position is more complicated. I think in most cases it's a result of being socialised to be kind and put others (especially men) first. And in some cases I think it's a question of privilege; women who move in particular left wing circles but have never been in prison or needed to access rape support services or a women's shelter, who aren't from an ethnic minority religion, who can afford to get taxis home late at night, who don't compete in sport, and who therefore aren't actually at the sharp end of this and aren't considering the needs of women less fortunate than themselves.

But this is how safeguarding works. You assume everyone is a potential risk, and you act to minimise that risk.

I’m a woman in my 40s. Statistically I am a low risk to children. I’m also a qualified teacher and work in the LA with children in care, just about the most vulnerable group there is. I’m known in my LA, schools know who I am when I go to visit them. And yet I still have to renew my enhanced DBS every three years and if I go to a school I’ve not visited before and they don’t have my DBS number on file, I am not allowed to be alone with a child until they have verified it even if they know who I am.

This is exactly right. None of it is about labelling me as a predatory paedophile. It is about reducing the risk to its lowest possible degree. The majority of men are no risk to women or children. But some are, so to reduce the risk we treat them all as potential risks and remove their access to women’s spaces. Trans women fall into that category because of their biological sex. The question is simple: how do we know who is safe and who isn’t, just by looking? We don’t. So we put everyone in that category in the “potentially unsafe” bracket. Decent men understand this and don’t take it personally, just as they cross the road at night if they find themselves walking behind a woman on her own. They know they’re no threat, but they know she doesn’t know that and they act accordingly.

It is hugely dangerous to put a group on a pedestal and treat them as above reproach. We did it in the past with priests and politicians and doctors and yes, teachers. And it allowed some predators to prey unchecked, protected by their untouchable status because a priest, a pillar of the community, couldn’t possibly be a paedophile.

Any group that becomes less transparent, unable to be questioned and unaccountable seems to eventually become corrupted by the types of predatory people who see the group as a way to get away with their bad conduct. For example priests in the Catholic Church. How many paedophiles became priests because the church’s beliefs about priests being chosen by God and the status given to them and the confidentiality of confession and the silencing of their victims, gave them the perfect opportunity to have access to vulnerable children and get away with their crimes for many years?

And what about corruption within governments, with law enforcement etc? (This happens all over the world). The elements of being somehow above others, of a lack of transparency and accountability and the group closing ranks protecting each other and silencing dissenters creates the perfect storm.

Shutting down discussions, alternative points of view, silencing people (with intimidation and threats), and forcing people to simply accept or believe something without question creates an open invitation to predators and the corrupt.

By allowing women to freely express their genuine concerns about their safety and their equal rights it not only protects women but it also protects the members of the trans community who are genuine.

Yes, exactly.

It's great that you don't have a problem with men found quilty of non-violent crimes being housed with women but perhaps we should ask these women how they feel about it.

Given female prisoners are more likely to have histories of sexual and violent abuse at the hands of men I'm thinking that perhaps they might not want to be locked up with men.

Quite. But I'm sure all the naive women
who prioritise the wants of men know best and can give their consent for them.

This last part is a question I have asked time and time again.

If you are Team TERF you believe that the category "women" includes all adult humans of the female biological sex and excludes all adult humans of the male biological sex ("men").

If you are Team TWAW you believe that the category "women" includes most adult humans of the female biological sex whether they specifically believe they identify as women or have no particular beliefs about gender identity, but excludes all adult humans of the female biological sex who believe they identify as something other than women, and includes all members of the male biological sex who believe they identify as women.

Why?

What is the point of that category? Why do we need a word for this group of people? What do they have in common and why is it relevant to what spaces they should be using and what sporting categories they should be competing in?

According to Team TWAW, "women" just means "people of either sex who call themselves women" and "men" just means "people of either sex who call themselves men". Both categories now just mean "some unspecified people". And some people don't fall into either category but will nonetheless need to pick one if they want to use public toilets or compete in sport.

And meanwhile we now have no words for "female people" and "male people", which are actually groups of people with something very obvious in common, groups of people we actually need to talk about and who have particular concerns and needs based on their common characteristics.

Make it make sense.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I don't know what the difference between single sex and single gender spaces is. Would you have 1 space for those who "identify" as their biological sex? Then 1 space for men who "identify" as not men? How would you stop the men who "identify" as not men entering the spaces designated for women?

I personally feel we need clarification in law that prohibits all men however they "identify" from entering or being housed in female spaces.

Ive also agreed that TW in prison for violent or sexual offences shouldnt be with women without a secure supervision/safeguarding plan

Why is that even a consideration? Regardless of secure supervision/safeguarding plans they are men. There is absolutely no need for a man to be in a women's prison.

My issue with referring to biological men as a category of women is that people get confused and it's very easy to forget that we are talking about men. Biological men who identify as not men are no different from every other biological man. They are one and the same and for the safety, privacy, dignity and rights of women we need to remember this.

Thank you everyone for your challenges, i need to think a bit more about risk management in terms of shared spaces (although im still not sure i am totally opposed to TW in women's spaces where there are also single sex/single occupancy spaces....but i will think on it and you've given me some new perspectives)

i also agree that prisons are a particular issue where the lack of planning and funding means that some women dont have the choice of sharing space (one of many issues i have with the prison system, dont get me started)

i cant spend time with my trans friends and see them as anything other than women though, its just how i've known them and honestly despite the messages here i do think we have common ground and i do think "womanhood" can include this very very tiny group. Im not really swayed on that bit.

But thanks all, has been very useful and educational x

I honestly don't know what a "single gender" space would be or what it's purpose would be
This. Sex is sometimes relevant. I can't see when gender would be. Laura might be a lovely person but so are lots of males. I can empathise with Laura without pretending that you can change sex. If you start saying Twaw in some situations and not others it becomes extremely difficult to differentiate those situations which is what we've seen. In the example I gave earlier, the tw in question claims a right to shower with the girls because he is allowed to compete with them in women's sports. I mean, that's quite a logical argument isn't it? Either someone is female or they're not.

Yeah I agree with this.

I'd be asking him to explain his position rather than defending yours.

He has already done his research and is surrounded with access to information as are you. If he presented you with his information regarding his views would it change your mind? . Hes arguing with you and your opinion just as you are arguing with his. His opinion is just as valid as yours

Just agree to disagree hes an adult with his own views.

It's not his spaces they are invading though is it? Just tell him he's no right to have an opinion on behalf of the opposite sex. It doesn't matter what he wants, it matters what is best for women.

Yes. I would be interested to know if he thinks you can identify as another race and if not, why not?

So if she were more femme and less husky then she would be less of a problem. I get that.
You say TW then you go on to misgender them repeatedly.
Your prejudice is being reinforced by one example you are not comfortable with.
Can your HR provide some training for you and your team?