Help me present evidence to my son

[AlbertaWildRose]

My DS is 18 and heavy into the TWAW belief. He thinks JK Rowling is a despicable human being for her position and thinks that women should have no problem with all of this, and it's all just "scare-mongering" to say otherwise. Whenever I try to talk to him about this I end up getting too emotional to be rational. I really want to present him with evidence that this movement is not good for women - please help direct me to some good resources. Thank you.

Would he date a transwoman (or transman in case he's gay)? If not, why not?

I may be wrong, but I think the theory is that wearing clothes typically associated with the opposite sex is a fashion choice, not an identity. So a man might choose to wear dresses whilst still considering himself to be a man, whereas a male person who believes they identify as a woman based on how they feel inside is a trans woman.

The real question is why people think any of this is a basis on which to organise society, but sex is not.

Because the OP and many other women are trying to raise their sons to be decent people, not misogynists.

i dont believe you can change sex either, so thats common ground :)
But i do believe that there is a wide range of women's experience and i do believe that gender is socially constructed (i mean gender here, not sex). I know that this will immediately cause conflict because lots of you dont agree with me. Thats fine.
I get very frustrated as someone who cant have children that so many people blithely define being a woman by our ability to bear children or even to have a womb (i have neither) I also understand that being a woman of colour has different challenges that i wont understand or experience. Its not so hard for me to see that a trans woman has a different experience of "womanhood" if you dont define it purely by sex/chromosomes (which i dont)
Thats how i can accept TWAW while still also believing you cant change your sex

ill await the pile on with people telling me im an idiot, but ive just tried to be honest and transparent with my contributions here, and its been in good faith

I have, sadly, had to accept the fact that this is something I can't talk about with my adult children. The first thing that's been off limits in all our lives together. Breaks my heart.

He’s 18. He knows everything. You are old and know nothing about the modern world. Anyway, now we’ve covered young people.

Questions are always good. Ask him to explain what he means. Try and tease out what he believes, how he got there and get him to interrogate it himself. Draw out the inconsistencies. No one particularly needs to know the nitty gritty of their children’s sex life but, if he’s straight, presumably he’d have no issue with having sex with a transwoman, womanly penis and all. Has he read the JKR essay? If so which parts did he find particularly offensive. If not ask him to. Do a deal. In return you read something he chooses.

Keep talking. Don’t let it take over. I thought tarot cards were the bees knees at 18, we often believe any old shit.

Edited to add. Give him space to change his mind. Some of the more ‘extreme’ responses on this thread will just entrench his views and give him no way back.

I think I would avoid getting into any kind of debate around the subject with him. You won't change his mind like that. Neither will producing lots of evidence as to why he is wrong. The chances are he will dig his heels in even further and it will impact your relationship.

He will probably grow out of this particular view plus the tide is starting to turn on trans ideology in wider society.

If the subject comes up or he brings it up, personally I would repeat some sort of mantra.

Mine is "I don't have a problem with trans people but I have deep concerns about an ideology which pushes the sterilisation of gay children".

I say it slowly, clearly, calmly.
And that's all I say. I won't be drawn into any debate. I don't give examples of individuals behaviour or situations. I only ever talk about the ideology.

If the person then tries to talk about suicide risks for young people or any of the other clap trap I just repeat my mantra slightly differently.

"I cannot get on board in any way with an ideology which activates for the sterilisation of children."

If you want to change his mind the best way to do it is to plant a seed of doubt and then leave it there.

The problem with this is that nobody can really explain what gender is, why we should be organising society around it, and what we do about all the people who prefer not to define themselves according to it.

I'm female. I've lived my whole life in a female body and that has unavoidably shaped my lived experience. I've never been more painfully aware of my femaleness than when I was experiencing infertility and recurrent pregnancy loss, and whilst I did eventually manage to have children, I know that even if I hadn't done so I would still be very aware of my own femaleness and indelibly marked by it.

I don't have a gender identity. I don't accept the legitimacy of gender as a way to organise society. My understanding of gender is that it is based in the very same regressive stereotypes about men and women that the original feminists were trying to liberate women from. And I want us to be liberated from it, not defined by it. But if you remove biological sex from the definition of "woman" or "man" you have to define people according to gender, because there is nothing else.

What do I, a female person who does not wish to be the opposite sex and does not wish to define myself according to gender, have in common with a male person who wishes to be the opposite sex and wishes to define themselves according to gender?

Because as far as I am concerned I am the literal opposite of that person. We could not be more different. I have more in common with a trans man (who, like me, is female) or a regular man (who, like me, does not wish to be the opposite sex or define himself according to gender) than I do with a trans woman.

But according to the trans woman, we are the same and should be using the same toilets and changing rooms and competing in the same sporting categories. Because of how they feel.

Do I get any say in the matter at all? If not, why not?

so many people blithely define being a woman by our ability to bear children or even to have a womb (i have neither)

We don't tend to do that here. We mostly simply think women have female bodies.

different experience of "womanhood" if you dont define it purely by sex/chromosomes (which i dont)

How do you define it?

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish To be fair I don't think anyone actually defines a woman as being able to have children. Plenty of women can't. But I am interested in what you mean by TW having an experience of womanhood. Personally I don't feel I have anything in common regarding womanhood with TW. What do you feel you share?

Engage. Don’t push back because that makes people dig in. Have a discussion about what a man is and what a woman is.

Could you become a man by saying you are a man?
could he become a woman by saying he’s a woman?
Could you each change again the next day?
what would have changed each time?
Why do we describe people as men and as women?
What does living as a man and living as a woman mean?
is he a man or is he a woman?
what does he think you are- man or woman?
how does he know?

Oh and if he comes out with the (incredibly callous) "better a sterile child than a dead child" I would then have a mantra about evidence.

"That is an ideological position not an evidence based one. As I said, I cannot support an ideology which sterilises children."

Just plant the seed. If he's really at all interested in the subject he will look it up for himself. Don't send him links, etc.

What « movement »??? People quietly trying to live authentic lives congruent with their gender?
So what evidence are you looking for to prove what?

I would avoid the topic if possible

Not because it doesn’t need talked about or discussed or views challenged - the advice about using a simple statement of your position but no further by Beach is good I think

But anything more will frankly be wasted energy

He’s male

He doesn’t want to hear that males are responsible for 99% of all violent & sexual crimes

Because he’s male

He doesn’t want to hear that males are using the cover of ‘trans’ to abuse females

Because he’s male

What he wants is to be male and strong and proud of himself

And frankly atm the main role models of strong, proud of themselves, males in society are arseholes and abusers

They have the money, the power, the sex

So try and surround him with better male role models who are strong and proud of themselves and respectful in real life

because it is 99% of all crimes not 99% of all males so he has a choice to be a male who rejects violence and disrespect

he has a choice to question the lies he’s been told, to question the glossy fake instagrams, bitter incel rants and manipulative abusers regardless of how they identify or dress

he has a choice to be a decent man who respects himself and other people and who choses to work towards a life filled with love and happiness

we can’t know everything, we do our best and hope for the best

so don’t waste your energy in words (😂 reminded of that one on here just this week)

invite some good men round, present options of positive groups,
drop the rope

ultimately people, male or female, will decide for themselves if they want to be arseholes or not

even those we love that we would wish better for

good question - no i don't believe that trans women who are jailed for sexual offences should be housed in low security prisons with women (but thankfully they arent! they have supervision orders, etc as pat of the risk assessments made when they are admitted)

It's no thanks to "I'm TWAW" feminists that "thankfully they aren't!". It's thanks to Keep Prisons Single Sex lobbying the government.

Before that, some of them were.

awesome question, and until i met my colleague "laura" i didnt really get it, but she transitioned at the age of 55 which was so hard and i just dont believe she would have done it if she wasn't desperate because in the 90s there was no understanding/public discourse around this so she had a torrid time. In conversation with her i did find lots of common ground. mostly frustration at stereotypes/gendered expectations and rampant sexism in the 90s but we also had very big conversations about the difference between presenting yourself for others and being who you wanted to be/felt was yourself. Feeling like you had to "act like a man" to be respected, that kindness and empathy were seen as weak, etc. I felt like we shared the feeling that we just didnt fit into the expectations of others, and those judgments were made based purely on our sex and not our character.
Truthfully, i dont understand gender dysphoria because ive never experienced it but she really did and living as a trans woman just SAVED her. ive never doubted that she felt she was a woman.

What « movement »??? People quietly trying to live authentic lives congruent with their gender?

No, that's really not all that people have issues with

You haven't heard of the Trans lobby, Trans Rights Activists or Trans ideology? That movement.

So you want evidence because he won't think the way you want him too? And you are 'right'?

That is controlling behaviour

i didnt really get it, but she transitioned at the age of 55 which was so hard

You mean your middle aged male friend had gender reassignment surgery?

littlepinkstars- I’ve pulled this bit out of your post

” i do believe that gender is socially constructed (i mean gender here, not sex). I know that this will immediately cause conflict because lots of you dont agree with me.”

because I think may of us who post here do agree with that. I mean, that’s a fairly standard feminist concept, that gender IS a social construct (and one that has negative consequences for women) isn’t it?

So, whilst I think gender constructs are damaging, I can’t see how a social construction can be innate.

Sorry, your colleague. But you seem to put this person's feelings over those of all the women you encounter so it's a bit more than that.

im infertile and no one here has ever made me feel I’m not a woman because of it. I’m infertile because my female biology has malfunctioned, that doesnt make me a man. The only ppl in FWR who have ever weaponised infertility by going “oh yes but what about women who can’t have children are they men eh eh?” are TRA

incidentally as so many TW are late transitioning Middle Aged men many of them in fact do have children because they fathered so I find it doubly offensive

until i met my colleague "laura" i didnt really get it, but she transitioned at the age of 55 which was so hard and i just dont believe she would have done it if she wasn't desperate because in the 90s there was no understanding/public discourse around this so she had a torrid time.

Jan Morris transitioned in the 70s, and he turns out to have been just another typical middle-aged male heterosexual transitioner who treated his wife and daughter appallingly.

The only ppl in FWR who have ever weaponised infertility by going “oh yes but what about women who can’t have children are they men eh eh?” are TRA

One of them told a cancer survivor here that she had a "blind canal" because she had had her uterus removed.