TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

[Signalbox]

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men?

”Two athletes competing at the Paris Olympics as “women” were previously disqualified from a women’s world championship for having “XY chromosomes.” Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-Ting of Taiwan are scheduled to compete in Olympic women’s boxing next week despite past questions surrounding their biological sex.”

reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

More people who write to them the more effective itll be, so its not all on her.
It takes less time than commenting here.

https://archive.is/Htt3H

This is a very clear article from a Queensland paper, the Courier Mail.

And yet, commenting on MN leads many readers to greater understanding of the situation so that when they do write they can articulate their position with better clarity.

Thanks for the X round-up @fromorbit It is interesting that this has broken into the mainstream, not surprising though. It is hard to think of a more clear cut case for excluding XY athletes.

Well it is a bit surprising as the IOC in advance laid down groundrules for reporting. Last section of portrayal guidelines. https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Gender-Equality-in-Sport/IOC-Portrayal-Guidelines.pdf

You should not speculate or report on gender without the prior permission of the athelete.

It's not speculation though. Simple facts.

Those in possession of a Y chromosome don't belong in women's sport. Even more so when there is a risk of injury to women in addition to unfair advantage.

Advising against reporting this is asking for lies.

It's not an either/or.

Kehlif seems to be a not great boxer, even with his advantages he has lost before.

Hubbard Mark II. Another mediocre man who pushes women out of having the opportunity to compete. The fact that they are not even very good athletes allows activists and the IOC to continue to pretend that men don’t have a physical advantage when they compete in the female category.

That is a good article. At least some people are actually calling them men, instead of 'people with XY chromosome.

Australian boxing legend Jeff Fenech has slammed the IOC and warned it was playing with fire and could witness a tragedy in the ring.

“What has this world come to,” Hall of Fame great Fenech said. “Listen, I’m all for women’s boxing, but do people understand the damage that can be done if men fight women?

“Put Mike Tyson in the ring with a female heavyweight and she will end up not just concussed, but with brain damage.

“My message is if you allow this to happen – watch out. Men and women are built differently.

Plus talking about the actual DSD.

It has been reported that Khelif and Lin are not transwomen, but are categorised as DSD athletes, born with a variation of the usual XY male chromosomes, similar to South African runner Caster Semenya.

The issue of genetic differences has plagued the Olympics in the past two decades. Semenya has a condition which impacts male sexual characteristics and while she has one X and one Y chromosome, the male testes are internal.

No woman has 'male internal testes.'

Sorry Helle, I meant to quote your article

https://archive.is/Htt3H

It could be argued that the IOC loses any moral right to enforce such guidelines when they disregard competitor safety and fairness the way they have.

And there now comes a point that those male people who choose to compete in the female category have done so knowing the science is there and has proven the advantage and the danger. They cannot say they don’t know this unless they have chosen to not inform themselves for whatever reason. So, I think it is not unreasonable to point out that these athletes choose to put female athletes in danger and to compete knowing they have advantage. But they choose to do so anyway. How is that respectful?

I guess in the case of the two boxers, the info is already in the public domain because they've previously been disqualified for failing 'gender' tests. I'm not sure what the IOC expected? Were they just hoping it would go under the radar? If so, that seems a naive position, at best, as there is so much more awareness about this issue now. Does anyone know if the male footballers have previously been tested?

On twitter it depends as ever who you get served up by the algorithm. The boxers are being described as 'cis women with naturally high testosterone'. Those posting this don't obviously use any numbers - which I know a bit about as I have PCOS: a woman with PCOS and high testosterone would have a count of about 150 (unsure of units, nmol?) whereas a man with treatably low testosterone levels might have 280-300.

There are women with XY chromosomes - an unbelievably, vanishingly tiny number. But tbh you could do a very quick flow chart for eligibility for women's sport by starting from the point that anyone with a Y chromosome has to show a diagnosis of Swyer's syndrome. I've no doubt that incidence of that diagnosis would soar in athletes immediately afterwards but it would at least be something.

Does this help with the numbers? This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

and

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in
99.99% of the female population.

The boxers are being described as 'cis women with naturally high testosterone'.

Since “cis” means that you identify as the sex you were assigned at birth presumably all this means is that these individuals were incorrectly observed to be female at birth so they have “f” on their birth certificate.

“PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.”

So for women high levels of testosterone due to PCOS can cause “serious issues” whereas men’s bodies thrive on it.

I found this about testosterone levels.

Male: 300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) or 10 to 35 nanomoles per liter (nmol/L) Female: 15 to 70 ng/dL or 0.5 to 2.4 nmol/L.

To convert ng/dL to nmol/L multiply by 0.0347

Your figure of 150ng/dL is about 5.2 nmol/L, which as Signalbox says, is high enough to cause serious health problems in women. For men, this is too low and can also cause health problems, which is why athletes like Caster Semenya have refused to lower their testosterone to this level.

Thanks

No need for the eye roll though.
If you already had the link why would I waste time googling it.

Are the athletes not drug tested? It seems extra unfair if some competitors seem free to compete with levels of testosterone that would indicate doping in your traditional old fashioned type of woman.

No woman has 'male internal testes.'

Yes, this can't be stated enough. A man who was mistaken for female as a child due to a medical condition is still a man. Chop off a man's balls he's still a man. He doesn't magically become a woman. I think macho talk is partly to blame - people saying a man without balls must be a woman... People saying a woman without make up must be a man... to the extent people actually believe it.

Wasn't there an Australian commentator censured or possibly even sent home for saying something sexist about female athletes putting their makeup on? If this kind of remark was made by a tw though, he'd be all stunning and brave.

That article, from an Australian newspaper! I can scarcely believe it. The comments from Pape, I'm assume included for balance, sounded unhinged.

I wouldn’t call Khelif ‘not a great boxer’. Came 5th in Tokyo, one loss away from a medal. Has won medals in various competitions - women’s of course.

olympics.com/en/paris-2024/athlete/imane-khelif_1540353

@biddyboo .. the footballers failed sex verification test in 2022...
https://www.iol.co.za/sport/soccer/africa/zambia-captain-barbara-banda-banned-from-wafcon-after-failing-gender-verification-b5feb0bb-88ef-4149-bbcf-4b04ac8c9b4b
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/jul/25/zambias-barbra-banda-create-my-own-name-leave-my-mark

"Madeleine Pape, an Australian former middle distance Olympian, and the IOC’s Gender Equality, Diversity and Inclusion specialist told Welsh BBC: “The IOC recognises that trans women are women. We need to get away from an abstract debate that sees this as potentially calling into question the existence of a women’s category altogether.”'

What - if you don't play nice, we will take away your competition?

This is the IOC Guidance: https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf#_ga=2.219716894.621299853.1686571450-594927581.1678187184.

Almost every line of this framework says: If a man says they are a woman, they can compete in the women's category, should not be expected to undergo testing, or for it to be assumed that they have an advantage, should be given paths to complain and contest the decision... there is not a single mention of protecting the female category.

It is a truly infuriating read and unbelievable that the IOC puts identity above all... and even when women are mentioned - it 'must ensure that athletes are not excluded solely on the basis of their identity or sex variations.'

MADNESS!!!! THE WOMEN"S CATEGORY MUST BE ON THE BASIS OF SEX AND SEX ALONE!!

“Banda turned professional – having five bouts, of which she won four by knockout and one by a points decision.”

So Banda knocked out four out of five women they fought professionally. Charming.

And Banda was exceptional, professional level, at two sports. Explosive power in football apparently.

I believe that Bob Ballard is British but was commentating on a shared international feed and made sexist comments about the Australian female relay team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cprq880yz0xo