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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

1000 replies

Signalbox · 28/07/2024 07:31

Surely this cannot be true. In boxing of all sports. I thought boxing had told men they needed to compete with other men?

”Two athletes competing at the Paris Olympics as “women” were previously disqualified from a women’s world championship for having “XY chromosomes.” Imane Khelif of Algeria and Lin Yu-Ting of Taiwan are scheduled to compete in Olympic women’s boxing next week despite past questions surrounding their biological sex.”

reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
107
NoBinturongsHereMate · 01/08/2024 16:24

ahjeez · 01/08/2024 16:21

Made the mistake of looking on twitter. Apparently the issue is "cis women just think anyone who doesn't fit western beauty standards is a man", to paraphrase.

Because that's how IAB official testing works, obviously - compare the competitor with the latest issue of Vogue.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 16:26

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 16:23

Try this:
Look up BBC Radio 4 ‘The World at One’

A BBC page comes up saying BBC Radio 4 - World at One.

Click on ‘episodes’.

A page for today’s programme comes up on top.

It’s title is ‘What’s behind the Southport Attack protests’

You’ll see ‘sign in’ or ‘register’.

Registering is easy if you haven’t before.

Once on to the programme, the the part about the Olympic boxing is at about 36:56 minutes in.

Sorry that was for @WarriorN · Today 15:53 too

MarieDeGournay · 01/08/2024 16:27

zibzibara · 01/08/2024 16:07

I see that the social media disinformation has already started. Claims I've seen so far include:

  • Khelif has given birth so must be female
  • the IAB is corrupt which means that Khelif's sex test is wrong
  • the IAB is controlled by Russians which means that Khelif's sex test is wrong
  • Khelif has a uterus so must be female
  • being trans is illegal in Algeria therefore Khelif must be female

All unevidenced of course.

I take your point in general, but as posted earlier, the IBA is or has been corrupt, at the time of testing, and is pro Russian, with links to Gazprom who gave them stacks of money. Also, they won't say what tests they did to prove that these two boxers are not women, so it's easy to dismiss them.

So it's not completely unreasonable not to rely on the word of the IBA.
It's also not completely unreasonable to accept that Khelif's family may have genuinely believed that he was a girl, and brought him up accordingly.

The whole mess needs to be taken back to zero and the status of 'female' boxers reassessed, based on independently-verifiable facts from somebody other than the dodgy IBA. In other words, the IOC needs to change its eligibility requirements so they are based on biological sex and not gender.

The Carini-Khelif mismatch may be a catalyst for this to happen, but I wouldn't bet on it... maybe before the next Olympics??

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 01/08/2024 16:28

ahjeez · 01/08/2024 16:21

Made the mistake of looking on twitter. Apparently the issue is "cis women just think anyone who doesn't fit western beauty standards is a man", to paraphrase.

From this and similar threads, it seems as if the cracks in #NoDebate may be responsible for a fall back to contriversies and manufactroversies about PCOS, VSD and gatekeeping standards.

There's also transmisia, of course.

Trans folks can be agents of transmisia as well… by perpetuating the notion of gender binary or "passing" superiority and using it to discriminate against other transgender people. For example, a trans woman at a company may refuse to hire a genderqueer person because their gender presentation might "confuse" customers, or a trans male administrator at a traditionally women's college may deny the application of a non-passing trans woman for not "transitioning enough."

https://simmons.libguides.com/anti-oppression/anti-transmisia#:~:text=Transmisia%20(also%20called%20Transphobia)%20is,antagonism%20directed%20against%20transgender%2Fnonbinary

And this classic, especially the final sentence:

Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972:

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us .

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt (from page 164)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281733-The-Trans-Umbrella-Is-Older-Than-You-Think?reply=108674196

LibGuides: Anti-Oppression: Anti-Transmisia

LibGuides: Anti-Oppression: Anti-Transmisia

https://simmons.libguides.com/anti-oppression/anti-transmisia#:~:text=Transmisia%20(also%20called%20Transphobia)%20is,antagonism%20directed%20against%20transgender%2Fnonbinary

TrainedByCats · 01/08/2024 16:30

I haven’t rtft so this may have already been mentioned but Khelif has a UNICEF ambassador role and has a gushing article about their inspiring dreams as a female Hmm boxer from March of this year ie. after failing the IBA sex eligibility rules.

https://www.unicef.org/algeria/en/stories/top-female-boxer-imane-khelif-dreams-gold-inspire-young-people

I’m so disappointed in the stance the UN organisations have taken over women’s rights.

Qanat53 · 01/08/2024 16:30

DSD complex, three letters doesn’t really capture the potential differences

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 16:32

ahjeez · 01/08/2024 16:21

Made the mistake of looking on twitter. Apparently the issue is "cis women just think anyone who doesn't fit western beauty standards is a man", to paraphrase.

So can they answer why it's these athletes in particular, I wonder? Because there are a lot of plain or masculine-looking actual women in sport, as in other areas - so why is it these two?

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 16:35

MariedeGournay
What would be the point, for the IBA, of faking or manipulating tests to exclude two not-particularly-special boxers? What would the IBA or Russia or Gazprom get out of it?

What evidence do you have that they carry out dodgy sex-testing? I get that you think they are bastards for what they did to Conlon, but this is quite different.

Edited to respond to additional post.

RainWithSunnySpells · 01/08/2024 16:38

I have a crazy idea.

How about we go back to using the cheek swab test that will confirm the sex of the competitor? To be fair, every single competitor will be tested. Each person will only need to be tested once as the test will be valid throughout their lifetime.

Edit- If people don't trust the IBA, then those athletes can be tested again.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 16:39

fromorbit · 01/08/2024 16:03

Quarter final confirmed it is Khelif vs Luca Anna Hamori, the Hungarian
Saturday at 16.22

https://olympics.com/en/paris-2024/results/boxing/women-s-66kg/qfnl000200--

Orban is going to go crazy with this. This is going to get extremely messy.

The Telegraph is attacking the BBC for bias

Olympics viewers left in dark by Eurosport and BBC failure to reference boxing gender row

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/tv/olympics-viewers-left-in-dark-by-eurosport-and-bbc-failure-to-reference-boxing-gender-row/ar-BB1r1nV6

despite Khelif being disqualified by the International Boxing Association last year over high testosterone levels before a gold medal bout at the women’s world championships

I thought it was more than ‘high testosterone levels’ and that they had not been tested for testosterone. They are not women with high testosterone. They failed the other test ( unnamed) because of their sex.

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 16:41

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 01/08/2024 16:28

From this and similar threads, it seems as if the cracks in #NoDebate may be responsible for a fall back to contriversies and manufactroversies about PCOS, VSD and gatekeeping standards.

There's also transmisia, of course.

Trans folks can be agents of transmisia as well… by perpetuating the notion of gender binary or "passing" superiority and using it to discriminate against other transgender people. For example, a trans woman at a company may refuse to hire a genderqueer person because their gender presentation might "confuse" customers, or a trans male administrator at a traditionally women's college may deny the application of a non-passing trans woman for not "transitioning enough."

https://simmons.libguides.com/anti-oppression/anti-transmisia#:~:text=Transmisia%20(also%20called%20Transphobia)%20is,antagonism%20directed%20against%20transgender%2Fnonbinary

And this classic, especially the final sentence:

Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972:

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us .

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt (from page 164)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4281733-The-Trans-Umbrella-Is-Older-Than-You-Think?reply=108674196

This is all so mad, isn't it?

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 16:47

ScrollingLeaves · 01/08/2024 16:39

despite Khelif being disqualified by the International Boxing Association last year over high testosterone levels before a gold medal bout at the women’s world championships

I thought it was more than ‘high testosterone levels’ and that they had not been tested for testosterone. They are not women with high testosterone. They failed the other test ( unnamed) because of their sex.

You are correct. No serum testosterone testing by the IBA, just chromosomal testing which showed they had XY chromosomes.

Also, MariedeGournay
The two boxers accepted the findings that they were male. Legally binding.

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 01/08/2024 16:52

The AIBU thread that’s now finished was ENRAGING! So much ignorance parading itself as superiority!

RayonSunrise · 01/08/2024 16:55

Lovelyview · 01/08/2024 15:28

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fight-after-46-seconds-against-imane-khelif
Sean Ingle in The Guardian is doing a brilliant job. Manages a clear report on the issue without calling Khelif 'she' at any point. All journalists should be doing this. Despite this horrible situation and Angela Carini's loss of her Olympic hopes, I do think this is very strong sunlight on the issue.

I was surprised to see this in the Guardian, and impressed with Ingle. More of this sunlight, please!

WarriorN · 01/08/2024 16:55

Thanks scrolling

Snowypeaks · 01/08/2024 16:58

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 01/08/2024 16:52

The AIBU thread that’s now finished was ENRAGING! So much ignorance parading itself as superiority!

Can you point me to it? Sometimes the comments are stupid but the ratio is super-sensible.

nietzscheanvibe · 01/08/2024 17:01

AlecTrevelyan006 · 01/08/2024 13:53

https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Gender-Equality-in-Sport/IOC-Portrayal-Guidelines.pdf

this document advises the media on how to report stuff - some of it is actually quite good, but loads of it is shit e.g. the section on 'problematic language'

There are many common language difficulties when reporting on or writing about trans people and athletes with sex variations. Below are some of the most common missteps and harmful language practices to avoid.

TERMS TO AVOID: “born male”, “born female”, “biologically male”, “biologically female”, “genetically male”, “genetically female”, “male-to-female (MtF)”, “female-to-male” (FtM) Use of phrases like those above can be dehumanising and inaccurate when used to describe transgender sportspeople and athletes with sex variations. A person’s sex category is not assigned based on genetics alone and aspects of a person’s biology can be altered when they pursue gender-affirming medical care.

All of these terms are factually accurate, so they're insisting on denial of facts, which is pretty much how we've got to this madness.

EasilyDisturbed · 01/08/2024 17:03

Just checking in here after listening to a 20 minute piece on this on BBC 5Live and being none the wiser because of the wriggling. But my heart goes out to Carini, I was nearly in tears listening to what she said about it. She is the true winner here.

borntobequiet · 01/08/2024 17:06

Tunneltiger · 01/08/2024 13:43

Horrified to hear Steve Bunce today on WATO gleefully dismissing Carini's distress. There is a real problem in the reporting on BBC.

Yes, he was awful. Gleeful is exactly right. What a vile man.

polyvinyl · 01/08/2024 17:09

From twitter

TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”
fromorbit · 01/08/2024 17:11

Tonia Antoniazzi MP for Gower

Mi dispiace molto per Angela, ha ragione, non è giusto e noi dobbiamo dire questo, tutti noi.

Non è giusto...

Translated from Italian
I'm very sorry for Angela, she's right, it's not right and we have to say this, all of us.
It's not right...

https://x.com/ToniaAntoniazzi/status/1818970278396936307#:~:text=Tonia%20Antoniazzi,It%27s%20not%20right...

x.com

https://x.com/ToniaAntoniazzi/status/1818970278396936307#:~:text=Tonia%20Antoniazzi,It%27s%20not%20right...

Plasmodesmata · 01/08/2024 17:12

So, this year we have two boxers, two (?) footballers and one (?) track athlete?
As far as I know, certain distances in athletics are slightly more protected in that testosterone levels need to be reduced to a certain level.
But - if in other sports it's as easy as "having an F on your passport" then do we not think that other countries will see this and take advantage for 2028?
Is it an easier way to cheat to a medal than doping?

lcakethereforeIam · 01/08/2024 17:12

Am I correct in thinking if Khelif wins his next bout he'll be on the podium?

Datun · 01/08/2024 17:15

Skyellaskerry · 01/08/2024 16:05

I heard that @datun quite unbelievable and I was pleased that he was “questioned carefully” which really showed up his dangerous ignorance, deliberate or otherwise.

Yes, the host wasn't having any of it. In the end she got him to repeat his stance and just kind of left it hanging.

I don't listen to LBC, so I don't know who she was. But I was delighted that she got it and wasn't afraid to speak about it.

GarethSouthgatesWaistcoat · 01/08/2024 17:18

I'm curious if we'll see a tactical silver (or bronze) place finish so as not to make it too obvious. This has happened in competition in the past to give plausible deniability to the cheating.

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