Trans athletes take Gold, Silver and Bronze in women's cycling race

[HootyMcBooby]

Hulking transgender athletes take gold, silver and bronze spots on female podium at Virginia cycling championship | Daily Mail Online

"The sailing fan from British Columbia has worked as a Mechanical Engineering Technologist and was ranked 22nd in the men's Victoria Cycling League this time in 2023.
Second place went to Jenna Lingwood, 43, who raced as a man until 2017 and is now a member of the Oregon-based women's cyclocross squad Team S&M.
She is a physics graduate of the University of Washington who works in Portland for Intel as a Supply Chain R&D Engineer.

Californian Eva Lin, 28, used to race as Henry Lin for San Jose State University's men's team, but his placings have soared since he switched to its women's team in 2022"

Dirty rotten CHEATS
That is all.

Oh hang on, it never happens though.
I must be dreaming.

Gymnastics should, just for the sake of completeness, but I think it is a very 'low risk' sport as men's and women's gymnastics are essentially completely different sports.

Women's football and hockey is a complete shitshow though, with transwomen competing throughout domestic competition. The sad thing is how many women are happy to have a transwoman on their team simply for the advantage it gains them in competition. I'm sure some are true believers, but I bet plenty are not remotely TWAW but just go with it for the advantage it gains them.

Why on earth are women expected to put up with this

Repeal it all it’s messing up society for women and girls

I really don't know how these people can live with themselves, denying the rightful winners their places. Their 'rights' trample over the women's, and people are hoodwinked. I thought sport had woken up (sic) to this kind of injustice.

We all know full well that bigly will eat anything put in front of them! Even the lemon drizzle cake if it was the only thing sweet in the house at 3 in the morning.

(Allegedly!)

There's nothing to repeal. The organisers of sports competitions are free to make up their own rules and unfortunately in the US (where this story comes from) they are firmly captured by TRAs.

The legislation does nothing for women and girls. Only negative impact

Why keep it? What’s beneficial about any pretence?

Wow, witness the fitness! Well done, boys, what an achievement.

Even if you repealed (in the UK) the GRA and removed gender reassignment as a protected characteristic from the EA, this will have no effect on event organisers deciding who they allow to compete and in what categories.

That deliberate, fucking dick bulge....

Because it's all about misogyny. It's about driving women out. The bodies - governmental or otherwise - doing this don't want to help women and girls, whatever they claim.

CassieMaddox

I said I thought Lisa Nandy was fair enough in saying it should be dealt with by sporting bodies, you disagreed and said she should be applying pressure, I said I think bodies should deal with own cheats. I didn't put words in your mouth, you did that to me.

I quoted you directly about it being authoritarian of government to write competition rules. No-one had suggested that LN rewrite the rules herself so that is you introducing a straw man.
You talked about dealing with cheats, said that it should be up to each body how they dealt with them. I pointed out that the government has a duty to ensure fairness for women in sport and therefore it would not be authoritarian to apply pressure to on sport governing bodies to fulfil their legal duties and the conditions of their funding. How is this putting words into your mouth? Or indeed strawmanning your position?

I'll try again though. My position on this is not about trans. My position is about where its appropriate for the government to actively intervene and where it isn't. I would be worried about the precedent of active intervention in this case.
My position is also not about trans. It's also about where it is appropriate for government to actively intervene. I think it should intervene in a clear case of sex discrimination and human rights violations. Just in case you're not clear - the "inclusive" policies which enable cheating are discriminatory against women because only men benefit from these policies. Allowing men into women's sport violates women's rights to fair and safe sport, and equal access to sport. Allowing men to use communal female changing rooms is a denial of their absolute human rights to privacy and dignity. Women with identities are entitled to participate in women's sport provided they are not taking testosterone.

It's not possible to know from what Nandy has said what she's doing behind the scenes and I'd prefer not to speculate.
I'm not addressing what she may or may not be doing behind the scenes. Luckily, it is possible to know what her approach is because she outlined it in the Telegraph article. So no need to speculate. I think her approach is wrong because it enables discrimination and denial of women's human rights by sports bodies.

At the moment this cannot happen in the UK. The US is nuts in lots of ways, I'd prefer not to apply their nuttiness to the UK because its really irrelevant.
A result like this may not be possible in cycling, but LN is talking about all sporting bodies, not just British cycling. And as I said in my previous post, most sports in England, Wales, Scotland and NI allow men in women's competitions. So it can happen in the UK.

The only exception in British Cycling rules is for males who have never gone through male puberty. I would be surprised if the exception has ever been used tbh and I'm not sure why it is there, maybe something to do with DSDs?

If the exception is there, it can be used, even if it isn't now. And you have to remember that boys are also stronger and faster than girls. So even if a boy grows up without the benefit of the puberty turbo-charge in his teens, he will still benefit from male athletic performance advantage. There are two mini puberties before the main event.

Male athletes with DSDs shouldn't be in women's competitions either, regardless of what the DSD is.

There was a video a few years ago, it has now been made private I noticed, where two olympic female gymnasts watched male gymnasts do some of their routines and incorporate moves that no female gymnast can achieve.

Even though they are different sports, a male body carries significant advantages still over a female body for many of those artistic female gymnastic events.

If there was no GRA I very much doubt we’d see this issue of men in female sports

I’m happy to give it a try. Why not?

@LaeralSilverhand CassieMaddox

Male gymnasts are not at a disadvantage compared to female gymnasts in artistic gymnastics, except perhaps for the artistic dance element of the floor exercises. With the exception of the balance beam, women's gymnastic disciplines were adapted from men's to make them easier. So the vault would be a piece of cake, the parallel bars likewise and the floor, with the caveat about the dance element. And I've seen Tiktok videos of male college gymnasts completing their female teammates' beam exercises with ease - on the practice beams which are about 15cm off the floor.

Men might struggle in rhythmic gymnastics because the degree of flexibility required for some moves is extreme.

cross post! As usual you have the actual evidence!

Boys and girls regularly race together at U12 and lower - there often aren't enough entries to stage separate races. However they get their own individual results separated by sex. Sex differences in cycling performance only become apparent at puberty - in fact girls are often at an advantage for a couple of years due to their earlier growth spurt. (This is based purely on my own observations having been a youth coach for many years, no official data to back it up I'm afraid). I've never heard of a boy trying to enter in the girl's category but I suppose it could happen.

The floor routines that earn points from moves such as where male people can use their greater ratio of fast twitch muscles to get more moves in, or get more height in their moves is very impressive. The q angle, always those hips, give greater stability too.

On what basis do you doubt this? The vast majority of transwomen in the UK do not have a GRC. The US, where this problem is endemic, doesn't even have an equivalent of the GRA.

@Snowypeaks

So even if a boy grows up without the benefit of the puberty turbo-charge in his teens, he will still benefit from male athletic performance advantage. There are two mini puberties before the main event.

I thought that mini puberties in boys was more to do with gonad development?

There are now about three or four studies where it has been identified that from the age of 6 male children have a physical advantage over female children.

Danish study on VO2 max and LBM in children from age 6

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725036/pdf/v039p00725.pdf

Maximum oxygen uptake and objectively measured physical activity in Danish children 6-7 years of age: the Copenhagen school child intervention study

Eigberg, Hasselstrom, Gronfeldt, Friberg, Svensson, Anderson
October 2005

Objectives: To provide normative data on maximum oxygen uptake (Vo(2)max) and physical activity in children 6-7 years of age and analyse the association between these variables.

Methods: Vo(2)max was measured in 366 boys (mean (SD) 6.8 (0.4) years of age) and 332 girls (6.7 (0.4) years of age) from preschool classes in two suburban communities in Copenhagen, during a progressive treadmill exercise. Habitual physical activity was measured with accelerometers.

Results: Boys had higher Vo(2)max both in absolute values (1.19 (0.18) v 1.06 (0.16) litres/min (+11%), p<0.001) and relative to body weight (48.5 (6.0) v 44.8 (5.6) ml/kg/min (+8%); p<0.001) than girls. The difference in Vo(2)max between boys and girls decreased to +2% when expressed relative to lean body mass (LBM). Absolute Vo(2)max was related to LBM, body mass, and stature (all p<0.001). Boys were more physically active than girls (mean counts +9.4%, p<0.001), and even when boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys were more active. The difference in physical activity between the sexes was higher when sustained activity of higher intensity was compared.

Conclusions: Vo(2)max is higher in boys than girls (+11%), even when related to body mass (+8%) and LBM (+2%). Most of the difference in Vo(2)max relative to body mass was explained by the larger percentage body fat in girls. When boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys engaged in more minutes of exercise of at least moderate intensity.

Australian children

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=021cccdaed57d120bb05bac71c05ee82b0c5b315

Greek children ( I have no access to this other than the publicly available)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2015.1088577?needAccess=true

Here is a new study released on sex differences between male and female children under 11 years old.

Sex-based differences in track running distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups

Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw, Ina Shaw

5th February 2024

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12075

"In conclusion, although some have stated that sex-based differences in athletic performance do not arise until puberty, the present data indicate that in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups males run faster than females in distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m. While some females in these age groups are faster than some males, the average male finalists are faster than the average female finalists, and the fastest males are faster than the fastest females. As running is a key component of many sports, these sex-based differences between prepubertal males and females should be considered when sport governing bodies and policy makers consider the issue of sex-based sporting categories"

I would suggest that organisations who run the children together are fine to some extent if they reward each sex. However, I think that some studies would need to be done as to whether racing with male children deters female children from competing. It may prevent a female child from entering in the first place, even knowing the results are to be split.

On the basis that legislation underpins males access to many places

We cannot ask to see a GRC so the number issue often cited on these threads is irrelevant

Remove that and it changes things to benefit women and girls, why would men enter anywhere? There would be no legal underpinning to do so

Let’s prioritise women and girls, repeal the GRA and keep
going until men don’t have access

Whose benefit are you pushing for anyway, why the reluctance? Could you say why you do want to keep it

I cast out the false prophet Biglylettersgiver! Twice, thrice, I curse her! She shall be consigned to hell for all eternity (not just a bit of it, ALL of it) with no Tunnocks to relieve the hunger gnawing at her entrails along with the Hell-ferrets!

The preschool sports day gave this away in spades a few weeks ago. The two year olds could toddle together. The preschool races were separated by boys and girls. The manager explained they'd had to do this following the practices, as the boys even at three and four were so much faster than the girls that they just won everything.

@Helleofabore yes, I've seen those kind of studies before. None of them have been done on cycling AFAIK and they also don't seem to address the "overlap" years when girls hit puberty and have their growth spurt before boys. We typically see girls racing as fast as boys up to U12 because even if they don't have the raw power (although some do), they generally make better tactical decision, exhibit better teamwork, and generally show more mature racecraft from an earlier age. Mostly because they actually bloody listen to their coach :)