Tinkerbell syndrome, pronoun badges and trans existence

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

Inspired by some posts in a now-full thread:

Someone in the workplace who is trans is literally existing as trans in public. Yet we are told that disagreeing with accessories like pronoun badges means we don't want transpeople to exist in public.

So - must trans necessarily involve others and is it so fragile an identity that it will disappear like Tinkerbell if not constantly affirmed by everyone around the transperson? Is not noticing the badge transphobic? As most people, including those with specific protected characteristics and including most transpeople to be honest, don't wear badges announcing their identity, does this mean they don't exist in public?

I would argue the sole purpose of pronoun badges is to involve others in the validation of a specific type of trans identity whether they consent to this or not and even if they don't understand they have been allocated as having a supporting role in someone else's main-character life. But speaking on a personal level, I have my own priorities and interests - I find it an imposition to be subjected to the macroaggression of being expected to change my natural language processes for someone who will never be part of my concerns.

(I don't normally start threads so if I don't come back I'm not shaving my hairy feet, I've probably forgotten or something)

It is being presented to you as "just a minor adjustment" but it is not.
It is a major adjustment in the way everyone thinks and it only benefits creepy blokes.
Imagine saying "you have to say North instead of South" or "Black instead of White" and imagine the chaos that would ensue?
It's also confusing our daughters who need to be able to quickly identify sexual preditors.

Just for anyone not familiar, DARVO is something that manipulative people and their supporters (often called flying monkeys) do.

It stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.

And we see it a lot particularly with people with narcissistic personality disorder and other cluster B personality disorders.

From Wikipedia:

As the acronym suggests, the common steps involved are:
1 The abuser denies the abuse ever took place
2 When confronted with evidence, the abuser then attacks the person that was/is being abused (and/or the person's family and/or friends) for attempting to hold the abuser accountable for their actions, and finally
3 The abuser claims that they were/are actually the victim in the situation, thus reversing the positions of victim and offender.[2][4] It often involves not just playing the victimm but also victim blamingg.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO

Imagine saying "you have to say North instead of South" or "Black instead of White" and imagine the chaos that would ensue?

Exactly.

We seem to have Schrodinger's pronoun badges according to some posters - so trivial that women who say they would prefer the status quo are petty at best and giving feminism a bad name at worst, yet simultaneously not trivial enough to say they can't be worn.

There have been many interesting points made but I think Snowypeaks in particular has nailed it here: Where I am the client, customer or patient, the wishes of pronouns-haver are neither here nor there.

I'm a carer and my only experience of these badges in a work-related role* was when a LHA official, a very female-preeenting woman wearing a she/her badge, visited one of my clients while I wasn't there. I'll put aside the utter pointlessness of being a woman specifying she/her pronouns to concentrate on my client. My client had read about these badges and felt uncomfortable but was too intimidated to say anything - but I wasn't! I put a formal complaint in (without mentioning my client) because we both felt it to be highly inappropriate and political behaviour. It is a completely unacceptable practice for staff to indulge in when visiting vulnerable clients in their own homes imo. It adds nothing to the client's care - quite the opposite because it centres the provider's controversial and questionable political demands instead which is damaging to the relationship. So although my OP was inspired by posts made on another thread, it is an issue that has had a direct effect on vulnerable people I care for.

*Being working class and from a very deprived area, the only other time I've seen these badges in the wild is in my city's museum and I complained there too because it discriminates against people with learning disabilities etc

My client had read about these badges and felt uncomfortable but was too intimidated to say anything - but I wasn't! I put a formal complaint in (without mentioning my client) because we both felt it to be highly inappropriate and political behaviour. It is a completely unacceptable practice for staff to indulge in when visiting vulnerable clients in their own homes imo. It adds nothing to the client's care - quite the opposite because it centres the provider's controversial and questionable political demands instead which is damaging to the relationship. So although my OP was inspired by posts made on another thread, it is an issue that has had a direct effect on vulnerable people I care for.

Well done for challenging. What was the outcome if you can say?

Years ago we had newly retired desperately dull neighbours
introduced themselves as
John and Tink - Tink? yes I call her Tinkerbell
Tink, smallish and sturdy, not a build anyone would associate with a diminutive,
flighty fairy, but still, Tink she was, no one ever knew her (real) name.

In Tink’s case, ignoring or refusing societal norms, furthering ‘John’s’ delusions, insisting that as he perceived his new wife as Tinkerbell, everyone else should.

Ereshkigalangcleg I was told they recognised the issue and was asked to pass on an apology to my client - she was offered a phone call to discuss her concerns further but she wanted to stay anonymous. There have been no further visits from either the original woman or anyone else wearing these badges to this client or any of my others.

That's a surprisingly good response from a local authority @Alltheprettyseahorses - great to hear. Hopefully other people will feel empowered to make polite challenges.

So how exactly did winkys post fit that model?
It didn't. You just didn't like what they said.
I've missed your posts about being in an abusive relationship, I have too and you could literally map the conversation to DARVO. It is not a difference of opinion or a bit of a snark.

Here's the post. I don't see any abuse, any denial of the abuse, any attacking or reversing of "victim" or "offender".
I see an assertive response to a point with one snarky line.

You don't like what she said but there's no need to imply she's abusive/narcissistic etc.

Aside from a few vocal activists, I can tell you, most people just want to exist in peace. If a badge with a pronoun on it means someone gets to exist in a bit more peace then that seems fine. If you want to ignore it, then you can do that as well.

Oh good, so I can use sex based pronouns then? Excellent.

You can of course! But you may get fired, or reported to the police. Soz.

Fired or reported to the police for acknowledgement of fact?

You can of course! But you may get fired, or reported to the police. Soz.

Yes, "freedom of speech not freedom from consequences", eh? Which never seems to apply when the "right" sort of opinions face consequences.

I'm not seeing the relevance here, but do explain what point you are making, please, if I have misunderstood you.

Tink/Tinkerbell was her name/nickname. Her partner's name was John. People's names or nicknames don't have to reflect their personality or looks. (Eg Little John. Chinese Alan. Big Suze. Grace. Cecil.) We're not "perceiving" her as Tinkerbell or a fairy. Or an elf, gnome or any other mythical creature. We're calling her Tinkerbell because it is her name.

Pronouns in the English language are sex-based and reflect the sex of the person referred to. When you call a man she you are agreeing that he can choose what sex he is and that his sex is female. Which is nonsensical.

If a badge with a pronoun on it means someone gets to exist in a bit more peace then that seems fine.
Forcing people to collude with your alternate reality is hardly an example of "just existing in peace", is it?
Far too combative for that, I'm afraid.

Compared to the 2million women who have been awfully subject to violence by men, pronoun badges seems kind of trivial.

Being unable to challenge a man wearing a 'she/her' badge from accessing women's spaces in order to harass, abuse or indeed sexually abuse or rape women or girls, is precisely why they aren't trivial.

If you don't believe in gender identity ideology, the idea of personal pronouns, in languages which use them, as anything but sex-based doesn't make sense.

Fired:

'Teacher sacked for 'refusing to use transgender student's chosen pronouns'

https://news.sky.com/story/teacher-sacked-for-refusing-to-use-transgender-students-chosen-pronouns-13098225

Reported to police:

'A journalist claims she is being investigated by police for using the wrong pronoun for a transgender woman.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-47638527

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/uk-radical-feminist-warned-use-transgender-defendants-preferred-pronoun-court

'A radical feminist was warned by a judge in court yesterday to use the pronoun “she” in reference to a transgender defendant,'

Wolf was found guilty of assault, but the judge admonished McLachlan for failing to use the right pronouns:

'Judge Grant refused to grant Ms Maclachlan any compensation, saying: "Compensation would not be appropriate, particularly due to the unhelpful way in which the victim was present [at the protest] and the way she was filming.
"She was asked at different stages not to film but continued to do so.
"Another factor I have to take in to account is the Twitter post that has been submitted that was posted after the case had been brought to the attention of the police and there were criminal proceedings pending.
"It was foolish of her to post that tweet in the way that she did.
"It was notable that when I asked Ms Maclachlan to refer to Ms Wolf as 'she', she did so with bad grace - having asked her to do so she continued to refer to Ms Wolf as 'he' and 'him'".

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/transgender-activist-tara-wolf-fined-ps150-for-assaulting-exclusionary-radical-feminist-in-hyde-park-a3813856.html

Because punching a woman is equivalent to a woman calling a man 'he'.

'trivial'.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

'Pronouns are Rohypnol.
They change our perception, lower our defences, make us react differently, alter the reality in front of us.

The men [who are the actual danger] know they are men. It's all a power play.

All of it.

Such a good essay, and a great Mumsnetter. I miss her.

What, you mean the teacher who lost his case because the ET essentially ruled he was an arse in how he dealt with it?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-68681038

I don't think that's evidence of anything. It's like the council worker yesterday. Be GC but don't be an arsehole, is how I'd summarise it

Disagree with an ideology that mutilates and sterilises children, puts women in danger, and erases sex as a political concept, but don't be arsey about it.