Tinkerbell syndrome, pronoun badges and trans existence

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

Inspired by some posts in a now-full thread:

Someone in the workplace who is trans is literally existing as trans in public. Yet we are told that disagreeing with accessories like pronoun badges means we don't want transpeople to exist in public.

So - must trans necessarily involve others and is it so fragile an identity that it will disappear like Tinkerbell if not constantly affirmed by everyone around the transperson? Is not noticing the badge transphobic? As most people, including those with specific protected characteristics and including most transpeople to be honest, don't wear badges announcing their identity, does this mean they don't exist in public?

I would argue the sole purpose of pronoun badges is to involve others in the validation of a specific type of trans identity whether they consent to this or not and even if they don't understand they have been allocated as having a supporting role in someone else's main-character life. But speaking on a personal level, I have my own priorities and interests - I find it an imposition to be subjected to the macroaggression of being expected to change my natural language processes for someone who will never be part of my concerns.

(I don't normally start threads so if I don't come back I'm not shaving my hairy feet, I've probably forgotten or something)

Strange how this never seems to apply to males asked to stay out of female spaces for the sake of sexual assault survivors.

Did your mother never say to you by way of rebuke, "who's 'she', the cat's mother?"?

I was taught not to use third person pronouns about someone who was present as an aspect of good manners. I use names and job titles and terms like "your colleague".

‘ I would suspect, based on long experience, that a doctor with a difficult to remember or say name would also know this as an every day thing and have no problem with someone who struggled with saying that name, or find it a barrier to providing care. It would not be seen as the distress, disrespect, insult, erasure or literal violence that using the wrong pronoun can be portrayed as.‘

Well, our practice had a registrar for a while ( it was a GP training practice) who had a very long and dauntingly complex surname and given name. My friend was one of the receptionists, she was quite concerned about her ability to pronounce it correctly, let alone that of the elderly patients in a fairly remote rural village.

First day, registrar walked in and introduced themself, saying ‘ but just call me Gok’ ( name changed, obv). Very popular person, sad to see them go onto better things.

The existence of nasty people doesn't erase the existence of people with genuine difficulties.

👏👏

The OP didn't mention KJK. We are talking about a wider issue of whether it's appropriate for health care staff to wear political statements at work or try to compel patients' speech.

For me, the only reason to wear the badge would be if you were worried about being 'misgendered'. Ie, you were trans, or chose to dress and look in a traditionally opposite sex manner. I wouldn't really care if someone wears it. But I guess I would assume they were trans and didn't necessarily look like the gender they want to identify with. If it helps me be more polite then that's fine. I wouldn't want to embarrass anyone.
I know a couple of trans people and they definitely don't walk round with badges on.

I have spent the last 15 years in a series of workplaces that employ a lot of staff on Tier Four visas. Simplifying names is commonplace, as is attempting to spell one's own name phonetically in email footers.

I am used to people:

• misspelling my name.
• mispronouncing my name.
• writing support tickets that start "Dear Sirs" like it's still 1953.
• referring to me in email chains as "he".
• referring to equipment as "he".

I don't get offended because life is too short and I make three out of five of those errors myself at times.

I'm autistic and that puts me firmly into the "lying has mental health consequences for me" camp too.

It's strange how reasonable adjustments only apply to one set of people.

I'm autistic and that puts me firmly into the "lying has mental health consequences for me" camp too.

It's strange how reasonable adjustments only apply to one set of people.

It is, isn't it.

I will never acknowledge a pronoun badge and I never give my pronouns when asked. To engage in pronounery at all is to partake in what I believe to be a malevolent and abusive cult - the TRA cult.

As OP rightly points out, the TRA cult can only exist if it forces non-cult members to actively partake in the delusions of the cult.

I am free to refuse to partake just as I am free to refuse to engage in Muslim prayers, enter a synagogue, or plan my day according to my horoscope. I live in a country where I don't have to engage in any spiritual, religious or cultic belief if I don't want to.

Polite? Where does politeness come into it? Is it polite for people to demand you deny reality as you experience it? Is it polite for people to demand you surrender to their personal beliefs? Is it polite when your HCP indicates that their self-validation is more important than your health? Because that is what people are doing when they wear badges declaring that they wish to be referred to by the pronouns of the sex that they are not.

Many of us are gender non-conforming, or have androgynous looks, or have non-English or gender-neutral names, so being 'misgendered' is nothing new to us. R of us have been traumatised by it.

It used to be that if you wanted someone, whom you had not met or spoken to, to know your sex you would simply add Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms to your signature. That is an indication of your sex, not a requirement for people to talk about you in the way you demand.

Well said!

Yes, that's about it. In a work context you comply with your employers policies politely or leave.

In the case of that teacher, I don't think his behaviour achieved much for "the cause".

Ongoing digs = laying out the actual facts instead of exaggerated and inflated fabrication?

Exactly.
I think there's an assumption being made here that everyone with a pronoun badge is going to be completely unreasonable about pronoun use. Whereas in reality I imagine most people using the badge see it as a polite request rather than a command.

I'm very fed up with the suggestions to use pronouns at work/on LinkedIn etc and usually refuse. But I really can't see the issue with other people exercising their own choice to use them and politely requesting others do so.

😂
Honestly
No, continually being rude and hostile to PP for having a different opinion.

Completely unnecessary as at the end of the day everyone can watch the video as KJK kindly put it up, and decide for themselves if they think its OK.

It's a discussion board. People can post their opinions and don't deserve attacking for it.

I think there's an assumption being made here that everyone with a pronoun badge is going to be completely unreasonable about pronoun use. Whereas in reality I imagine most people using the badge see it as a polite request rather than a command.

You have a vivid imagination. There is nothing polite about the request, why is it necessary at all? As long as people treat you civilly and politely what difference do the pronouns they use about you make?

Nobody was attacked .
What happened actually, was previous poster's misrepresented the actual facts, added in stuff that didn't happen, and they were corrected.
There are rude and hostile responses for sure but not there.

Doesn't the "they, them, you' cover this? So you don't need to call hairy chested Bob "Tullulah" as you can get round it with a "what are you doing this weekend, how was your weekend?"

I don't really get it as I never had to say to my bosses face she or her. I'd use their name in convo with others or their job title to refer to them.

Refer to them as you when talking directly. Refer to them as Tullulah when they are being talked about?

Hey did you finish the payroll?
Did Tullulah finish the pay roll?

When does all this he / she stuff fit in? Just use they.

If I was asked to declare my pronoun I'd self I'd as human. Self declaring as a woman makes me feel like a trans person and I'm not trans and I don't want to feel trans so it human or they them. They them sounds trans too so I might refuse a pronoun. Maybe it could be it? Declaring pronouns is a trans concent and I'm not.

You don't have to dismiss it by not indulging in their drama. The third option. Don't be rude, just don't engage. You, they, them.

Yes, that's about it. In a work context you comply with your employers policies politely or leave.

Actually - speaking as a small business owner - that's not quite true.

Employees must comply with the terms of the employment as laid out in the contract - as must the employer. But you can't put in a contract a blanket requirement to 'comply with all policies the employer might introduce' because, of course, the employee would have no way of knowing what policies an employer might decide to introduce.

You also can't put anything in an employment contract that would require the employee to do anything that went against a freely held religious or political belief, so, for example, you couldn't demand that a prospective employee never vote Lib Dem, or always face Mecca when praying, or always bet on the horses etc etc

If I introduced a policy whereby my employees had to wear pronoun badges (which I wouldn't, because I'm not an idiot who believes in fairies), no way could I enforce them to wear them. They'd be taking ME to tribunal not the other way round.

@CopperNanoTubes exactly!

I don’t believe that gender is a real thing that exists, it’s a made up ideology that expects people to conform to rigid gender stereotypes. I’m not going to call an obvious man she/her because I’m lying, and that has mental health consequences for me. If someone requires complete validation at all times they need help, not 100% validation, that’s just not a realistic expectation to have, in any situation.

You can expect your staff to behave in a polite and professional way though and a few cases recently have shown that some people claiming discrimination because of their GC beliefs were in fact just unprofessional arses who were rightly disciplined.

Displaying pronoun badges is not polite and professional, IMO. Unless you are hosting a seminar for people with special identities, maybe...

You can expect your staff to behave in a polite ... way though

Hmmm, my business serves the construction sector. Professional when onsite? Always. Polite? Some of the banter would turn your hair white.

some people claiming discrimination because of their GC beliefs were in fact just unprofessional arses who were rightly disciplined.

1. This is very, very different from your earlier implication that employees could be forced to go along with pronounery or lose their jobs. They definitely can't.
2. Disappointing though I've sometimes found it, you cannot fire someone for being an arse. Not even an unprofessional arse. There is a process and there are sackable offences and non-sackable offences. Not believing in the cult du jour is not a sackable offence. No matter how much you'd like it to be.
3. I suspect your statement of a certain amount of subjectivity, but, rather like a bearded dude in a dress, you can't make something true by saying it is.