Used an 'all genders' bathroom today

[Dominoodles]

Sent to the theatre today and ended up in an 'all genders' bathroom. Walked in and came face to face with a man and we both instinctively apologised to each other. There was this instant understanding that we should not be sharing that space.

The toilet itself was awful. There was urine splattered all over the seat, a pool of urine on the floor around the base of the toilet, and no sanitary bin that I could see.

I can't say I felt unsafe, exactly - the only man in there was perfectly polite. But it didn't feel 'all genders'. It felt like I was in the men's and everything was covered in pee and nothing catering to women at all. I felt like an intruder, and that it was not a place for women.

I never gave any thought to the concept before but now I feel really uncomfortable about it and I don't really know how to put it into words. What are your thoughts on 'all gender' public bathrooms? I'd love to pick the brains of some ladies here.

My only real experience of this is the National Portrait Gallery in London. One long corridor with loos off to each side, each self-contained with loo, sink, hand-drier and sanitary bin. I don't think there are urinals, but can't remember if there's an individual sign on each door to indicate this.

Obviously because they're self-contained you don't encounter issues like hand-washing next to the opposite sex/having to put things in a sanitary bin with the opposite sex there, but I do still feel slightly on edge in them and my impression is that plenty of others (both sexes) do too; there's a definite sense of people sidling past each other to get to and from the loos, men avoiding eye contact with women and vice versa.

It's not a relaxing experience, even if there's nothing overtly 'wrong' with the set-up.

what was the thinking behind bringing them in in the first place? Is it a cost saving exercise?

This surely isn’t a genuine question

There's a big difference between a single use bathroom with sink in one room in a cafe, and a multi-person use mixed sex toilet facility with cubicles, urinals and sinks all together.

The former might be dirty but it's safe. The latter is neither clean nor safe for women and female children.

Men use bathrooms functionally and don't give much of a shit (pun intended) about the environment. For women, public bathrooms are a place not only to excrete but also to manage periods, do make up, sort our appearance, and as a sanctuary away from men. For a whole host of social historical reasons, womens bathrooms are MORE THAN just a place to excrete and therefore they should be kept safe and single sex.

The Times commissioned a survey a few years ago which found that in all stranger-on-stranger sexual assaults in public places, more than 60% took place in a changing or bathroom facility that was mixed sex.

In addition, cafes with their contained toilets don't tend to be places where a lot of alcohol is drank, whereas all my experience of the communal mixed sex bathrooms has been. Probably one reason why cafe loos tend to be slightly cleaner.

If there's an 'any gender' one then maybe that's what women should use ? Trans identifying men will of course only use the women's, and men will use the men's, so we should have the any gender one to ourselves!

Not necessarily....if enough people complain or tell venues that they don't like this arrangement. It's the same in the new Aviva Studios in Manchester. A very uncomfortable experience for most - and totally unnecessary.

There's a theme park in the super liberal, relaxed Netherlands that went gender neutral for its new toilets in a new bit of the park. What this means in practice is two places to go in - one signposted with urinals and cubicles, one with just cubicles. Without fail all the women were using the just cubicles and all the men using the urinals and cubicles. I saw one man head into the just cubicles bit, do a double take when he realised it was just women and then reverse as if he had got the wrong toilets and head to the other side. Essentially, everyone was treating it like the toilets were the male/female ones found in the rest of the park.
The idea that wanting single sex toilets is some odd, prudish English thing and everyone else on "the continent" is terribly sophisticated and above such matters is nonsense. Its a fairly universal human thing to want some privacy from the opposite sex when you use the toilet. The only people who really genuinely want to be around members of the opposite sex at such times are a bit odd (and the last people I would want around me).

It was to make people with trans identities feel more comfortable, but at the expense of everyone else - particularly women and girls.

What always irritates me is when handmaidens try to find a middle way by saying "Let's just convert all public toilets to self-contained cubicles!"

Like it's easy and cost free for businesses and public spaces, especially small and medium size enterprises, to create more space in their establishment (planning, leasehold, landlord approval all needed could take years), do the internal construction and recon work, do the fit out, rebuild, replumbing etc etc etc...

Such an entitled and spoiled way to look at the world. Especially with the economic pressures on businesses and public spaces such as libraries.

Sometimes the simplest solution is the right one. KEEP TOILETS SINGLE SEX!!!

Absolutely no one is complaining about the single-use rooms somewhere like a cafe. Why do we have to say this over and over?

"Your toilet at home is gender neutral so why are you so bothered". [grins smugly at own originality and cleverness]

But we're going to have to get used to it, aren't we?

No. Complain or refuse to give your money to businesses that do this.

How did you know that's my favourite Twitter argument? 😂

I used to work at a University that made a number of the toilets 'all gender'. They were revolting - piss everywhere. I used to purposely walk into a different building to seek out the female-only spaces.

We have a recently-opened local cafe which I visited last week. It has 2 "all gender" toilets.
Both were wheelchair accessible (as is the cafe), both had space to change a baby, both had sanitary products and nappies for customers to use, as well as relevant disposal bins. Both were clean and hygienic with as many "No touch" devices as possible: lights come on automatically, wave to flush, etc.
I was very impressed.

I know about that argument but surely there must be more to it ?

Yeah, years of me being a cleaner and rarely were the womens a state.
Mens, everyday a different horror.
Womens, I think twice in 15 years was there anything horrible found.
Plus all my years of using women only toilets, rarely found anything disgusting. Yet according to my sense of smell, every man only toilet is rank. I don't know how the men put up with the stench.

But sure the women are "just as bad" not.

Every time I have used mixed sex loos they have been smelly and covered in wee. I don't give a shit about identity but people who stand to pee should not be sharing with people who sit to pee. Fundamentally wrong.

Actually we have one loo for the males in the family and one for the females partly because I hate the smell of men's bathrooms.

I’m a lecturer and the majority of toilets at work are gender neutral. They absolutely reek, and are revolting. There are two female staff -only loos for the entire building, and they are always full of female students who hate the mixed toilets. One of my students had a man burst in on her while she was on the toilet - she hadn’t locked it properly, he was very apologetic, both really embarrassed - just awful.

ironically they are full on with menopause policies at the mo. 🤦🏻‍♀️

I even hate the ones enclosed with their own basin and hand dryer. They invariably stink. I don’t want to stand there in the smell and wash my hands, fix makeup etc. I want to exit the stinky cubicle and do all that in a women only space with sinks and mirrors etc.

Mixed sex toilets stink. I get the argument that if you have a male partner/male DC your home toilet is mixed sex, but your home toilet doesn't get anything like the traffic of a public toilet and any urine splashes are properly cleaned as soon as they happen rather than being left to fester.

It doesn't seem that men routinely close cubicle doors in men only toilets. I recently suggested my husband had a 'safety wee' at a motorway service station when we stopped on a long journey, and he was reluctant as it would be embarrassing if he stood there and couldn't go - I said why didn't he use a cubicle rather than a urinal in that case, and he said there wasn't any difference in terms of privacy, it would 'look odd' to close the door.

I can't imagine using a public toilet without closing the cubicle door. Men's public toilets are an alien universe as far as I am concerned.

My thoughts are that they are abhorrent.

I saw one in a primary school. There were cubicles and wash basins with dads using it. In the end I didn't pee even thought I really needed to. The dads looked at me, embarrassed.

I didn't send DC to that school partly because of this.