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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Used an 'all genders' bathroom today

284 replies

Dominoodles · 10/07/2024 19:58

Sent to the theatre today and ended up in an 'all genders' bathroom. Walked in and came face to face with a man and we both instinctively apologised to each other. There was this instant understanding that we should not be sharing that space.

The toilet itself was awful. There was urine splattered all over the seat, a pool of urine on the floor around the base of the toilet, and no sanitary bin that I could see.

I can't say I felt unsafe, exactly - the only man in there was perfectly polite. But it didn't feel 'all genders'. It felt like I was in the men's and everything was covered in pee and nothing catering to women at all. I felt like an intruder, and that it was not a place for women.

I never gave any thought to the concept before but now I feel really uncomfortable about it and I don't really know how to put it into words. What are your thoughts on 'all gender' public bathrooms? I'd love to pick the brains of some ladies here.

OP posts:
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GeneralDeflection · 10/07/2024 22:53

We used to have them at work and they were vile. For business reasons we had people in the office at weekends and by Monday morning they weee covered in pee and there was 💩 everywhere. Turns out men liked to 💩 in them because the door shuts fully, and then they never clear up after themselves.

fully functioning professionals, disgusting

Summerinspringtime · 10/07/2024 22:57

There are 2 pubs in my local town I won’t go in.
Separate toilets for men and women but omg the smell as you have to pass the mens to get to the women’s!
It sinks.
So I boycott these pubs, I just cannot stand the stench.
No way would I ever use toilets which smelt that rank.

biscuitandcake · 10/07/2024 23:02

bringonyourwreckingball · 10/07/2024 21:15

What I don’t understand is that aid charities focused on the third world make a point of emphasising how important toilet privacy is - but apparently once we have other freedoms basic dignity goes by the wayside?

Expect that to start to change. The same takeover of UK women's charities by the hostile or the well meaning but clueless is likely to be replicated in international charities/aid organisations. Think about Oxfam.

biscuitandcake · 10/07/2024 23:05

FlannelCure · 10/07/2024 22:42

DH had to use mixed sex toilets at Wembley and he was very unhappy about it. He had to use the urinal because a sort of double queue had formed based on gender. He felt so uncomfortable that he had his genitals out with women and girls going in and out of the cubicles. A little bit on his own behalf but mainly because to him it’s very inappropriate to be exposed in front of random females, especially considering a majority of them were children and teens.

Yeah, feeling uncomfortable as an adult man around unrelated young women/girls when either of you are in a state of undress is a healthy thing, and a sign of not being a creepy weirdo. Trying to train men OUT of that natural discomfort is an odd thing to do.

DontThinkJustDo · 10/07/2024 23:06

I've yet to use one that doesn't have piss all over the floor and no loo roll. Grim.

ClackBurrant · 10/07/2024 23:21

I was really gutted off at a Forestry England (a government agency!) family day out type place to find a whole row of the unisex self-enclosed cubicles, plus an old school men’s toilet. They must have converted the women’s toilets into mixed and left the men’s exactly as before. I felt so annoyed that anyone would accept this at a family attraction- I didn’t bother trying to work out if there was a nappy changing table and sanitary bins etc in the men’s. I bet there wasn’t if they are so sexist that they give women no place of their own when we spend more time in the toilets than men do and also expect us to clear up strangers’ piss off the seats so our kids can use them. Horrible.

zeldazoo · 10/07/2024 23:49

We had them where I used to work and they were always disgusting. Pee everywhere and had to have the locks regularly fixed due to men pulling locked doors open. Luckily there were womens toilets on other floors that could be used.

Keeptoiletssafe · 11/07/2024 00:22

Hi I know some posters will have seen this long post before but a couple have asked me for the links.

Because the last government were looking at all the concerns people had about all new designs of public toilets (like the ones people mention here), they had been looking at standardising designs for the past few years. Unfortunately the designs they came up with need refining to be safe. They are going to be in any new non domestic building, or any toilet refurbishment in places like shops, offices, cinemas, stadiums etc.

Document T details the toilet designs that will come in to force in October 2024 in the UK. The toilet designs are dangerous for everyone but in particular, disabled people, medically vulnerable, women and girls.
Universal is for everyone and includes a sink and hand dryer . Ambulant is for frail people or people needing extra place.

There are 4 toilet designs:

• A Ambulant universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• B Universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• C Single sex ambulant - profile diagram shows full height door and no door gaps, no partition gaps

• D Single sex - no profile diagram, no mention of door or partition heights, AND can be designed as Type A or B ie fully enclosed for single sex use

None of the designs specify a door gap at the bottom of the door or at the top.

Why do gaps matter?

Because toilet door gaps save lives.

If you collapse, being able to survive or if you suffer long-term damage, will be down to whether someone notices and rescues you.

If you’re out and about or at work and feel nauseous/ill you are likely to head to the toilet.
There are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes. It is estimated there are 400,000 people in the U.K. with undiagnosed cardiac problems.
There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet.
Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. To put it into perspective there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school.
There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes.

A recent government report noted 80% of the thousands of incidents of drink spiking happen in public places, usually in bars and clubs, mainly to women, average age 26.

Prevention of sexual assaults
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school. This legislation does not affect schools but they have been at the ‘coalface’ of new experimental toilet designs so it a good demonstration of what goes wrong.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places such as busy train stations and shopping centres.

More problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

  • Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
  • Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
  • Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
  • Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
  • People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
  • Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable.
  • because they are enclosed the regulation states they have to be easily opened from the outside, so people can let themselves in when not wanted too.

Why have toilet cubicle door gaps disappeared from the new public toilet designs?

There are many articles and videos on why we have gaps under and over toilet doors - so it is worrying these have been ignored. The initial government consultation that was publicised several years ago led to Stonewall coordinating a response and very effectively dominating the results. There is nothing wrong with this lobbying but the policy goals that were created from the initial consultation concentrated on mixed sex ‘universal’ toilets and privacy because of toilets being mixed sex.

ARUP was appointed by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to carry out research into the toilet requirements of the population of England in the built environment, in particular disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. The government also did a second consultation. I wrote a lengthy response to the second consultation, detailing the statistics and need for door gaps but none of these issues were mentioned on published consultation results.

In the ARUP document, the justification (evidence and literature) for fully enclosed toilets comes from two American sources on p.129 of the report. I have analysed these sources as so much seems to depend on them. These are a restroom design for a Minnesota high school and an American paper from Joel Sanders and Susan Stryker. The later two authors are referenced in the Minnesota project. In a recent Harvard talk (from Stud to Stalled YouTube April 2024), Sanders said that transgender access to public restrooms rekindled his interest in queer space so he set up the ‘Stalled’ company with Prof Susan Stryker, but he admitted he did not have enough data on whether his designs worked as so few had been built. The reason for the fully enclosed idea is discussed in their paper referenced by ARUP: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’

No safety concerns of fully enclosed cubicles were acknowledged in these two ARUP ‘evidences’. No analysis has been done on the safety on fully enclosed cubicles. The only ‘evidence’ was the Minnesota school questionnaire students to answer tick box questions, about the all-inclusive restroom design (very open plan, with security cameras, separate sink rows). Only 43%, who knew both restroom types, preferred the all-inclusive model to whatever their old restrooms were (the difference approx 35 females, 83 males).

So the Arup recommendation for fully enclosed cubicles is from a tiny amount of very poor evidence and literature focused on a different group. Their ‘evidence’ bears no resemblance to any of the designs of UK toilets in Document T. Their ‘evidence’ does not take into account any long term health conditions nor disabilities’ analysis.

Considering it was looking at the requirements of people with long term health conditions, in the whole 171 pages of the Arup document there was no mention of the words: seizure, faint, diabetes, cardiac, heart, epilepsy, syncope, endometriosis, menorrhagia, collapse. There was one mention of ‘stroke’ in reference to a grab rail. There are two pages of lists of references to handrails. However I would argue that a floor-to-door gap is vital in design so it can be seen they have collapsed.

What other equality impacts have been done?

I can not find any other evidence or research as to why the designs are fully enclosed in the published documents. The Equality Impact Assessment for the Provision of Toilets (updated 15th May 2024) does not mention door gaps. It goes through all protected characteristics and does not identify any negative impacts of full enclosure.

The Health and Safety Executive have responded to my emails by saying that ‘the the gaps at the bottom of a door and cubicle partition were removed for universal toilets (Types A and B) to give people the option of privacy and dignity…’

I think the option of greater health and safety will be denied if only A and B are used.

Conclusion

Specifying toilet door gaps will enable offices, shops and entertainment venues to be suitable for workers and children with health conditions where there is a chance of collapse without warning and then Document T will satisfy the requirements in Equality Act 2010, The Health and Safety at Work Act (1974), Children Act 1989.

In terms of negative impacts for the protected characteristics in the Equality Act (2010), the absence of door to floor gaps in design affects age, sex (discussed above), disability (discussed above), and pregnancy and maternity. It affects everyone in terms of disease prevention, a medical emergency and fire evacuation.

The new government needs to enable people with long-term health conditions to live safe lives and help them be independent and in work. It needs women and children to be safe and prevent assaults through good design.

These designs have dismissed the rights of certain disabled groups (people with epilepsy etc) to a safe working and leisure environment.

There appears to be no emergency evacuation assessment and a fire risk assessment for a row of fully enclosed toilets compared to a ‘traditional’ row of toilets with door gaps.

There is no risk assessment on the impact of disease spread from less cleanable and less well ventilated fully enclosed toilets.

They do not recognise the danger of fully enclosed toilets for the chances of surviving a long term injury or death from collapse such as from a heart attack, stroke, epilepsy, brain injury, diabetes and fragility.

And they do not recognise the dangers, particularly to women and children, that a private space in a public area brings.

Single sex designs C and D need to specify floor-to-door safety gaps. If models A or B are used in single sex toilets, they need their design altered to include floor-to-door safety gaps.

It would also be life-saving to have floor-to-door safety gaps in all medical settings that are single sex in design.

Safety should always come first. Door gaps are like a car seat belt - you might never need them but when you do they are lifesaving.

ResultsMayVary · 11/07/2024 00:27

MugPlate · 10/07/2024 22:48

Why is making men wait and queue a good thing?

Because maybe now that it directly impacts them they might care about the issue?

Not sure why in single sex toilets more toilets aren't allocated to women given the known issues of queuing.

Jasmineinthegarden · 11/07/2024 03:33

I guess the only option is to use the disabled toilet. At least then you have the room to yourself. They aren’t any cleaner though. The whole situation is horrible and I avoid public toilets as much as I can these days.

Goldenthigh · 11/07/2024 05:18

I used mixed sex toilets at Bristol Beacon recently, same experience as many - piss all over the seats and floor, men using the cubicles as urinals and not bothering to close the doors. Please complain, whenever you come across this. I complained and they sent a message back to say there were also single sex toilets, but the mixed ones are the ones closest to the auditorium and where staff were directing people to go. I also asked if they’d surveyed their customers to see if anyone was happy with the new toilet layout but they are ignoring that question. Men won’t like them because they now have to queue, women don’t like them because of lack of privacy, dignity and how filthy they are. Who is benefiting? Please please complain, every single time you come across them.

Stopsnowing · 11/07/2024 05:32

I avoid the Barbican and old vic for this reason

Jasmineinthegarden · 11/07/2024 05:38

What a sorry state of affairs .

Kucinghitam · 11/07/2024 06:22

I've never (yet) been in mixed-sex toilets with the urinal and cubicle arrangement described here. I'd have backed out in 0.01 milliseconds! But I have been in venues with mixed-sex fully-enclosed cubicles located down a long corridor - and it has not been infrequent to walk past to see a bloke pissing without having closed the door, nor is it unusual to find the seats splashed with urine (it's almost a relief to find a loo with the seat up that I have to put down, in the hope that it hasn't been splashed). And I operate on the assumption that any previous male occupant won't have washed their hands, so after I wash my hands I have to think about how to hygienically unlock and open the door.

But on reflection and reading the posts of the ladies who adore mixed-sex public facilities, I'm perfectly happy for there to be mixed-sex (sorry, All Gender) toilets at a venue, as long as there is also proper and well-signposted provision of single sex toilets.

Furthermore, I am perfectly happy for said All Gender loos to consist of rows of open urinals next to a few flimsy cubicles. That way, all the Righteous folx can properly demonstrate how lovely it is all sharing together and nobody minds, and how men's pee/poo doesn't stink and how women are apparently just as dirty as men, whilst enjoying their inclusive joy and polishing their haloes.

And all we old dinosaurs can use the single-sex toilets like almost all women, and all decent men, much prefer.

Swamphag · 11/07/2024 06:40

bringonyourwreckingball · 10/07/2024 21:15

What I don’t understand is that aid charities focused on the third world make a point of emphasising how important toilet privacy is - but apparently once we have other freedoms basic dignity goes by the wayside?

Yeah, it's a bit racist isn't it? Those awful third world savages can't be trusted with "all gender" toilets and are a danger to women but our lovely gents in the civilised countries are perfectly safe.

I've just come back from hols where mixed sex toilets seem to be the norm. In galleries etc they're often hived off in a quiet part of the building and I felt quite uncomfortable using them. They were all perfectly clean and pleasant and nobody actually made me feel uncomfortable - I just didn't like them.

Beefcurtains79 · 11/07/2024 06:52

MyMomLovedViolets · 10/07/2024 20:52

I got slaughtered for posting similar recently.

Mixed toilet and was piss allover the seat and floors and everyone was saying it was probably the women too as they're just as dirty 🤨

Yeah, some posters are desperate to pretend womens toilets are dirtier than men’s. You can guess why.
You can tell when they make up bullshit about finding shit on the seat in the women’s, - or how they ‘used to be a cleaner and the women’s toilets were always far worse than the men’s’.
When women’s experiences simply does not match this.
They’ll keep insisting though.

YellowAsteroid · 11/07/2024 07:08

Dominoodles · 10/07/2024 20:00

The Hippodrome in Birmingham, its otherwise a beautiful theatre but the bathroom was awful

I know that theatre well - when they had single sex lavatories. The Ladies’ facilities were always clean and there were enough of them.

Sounds like regress rather than progress.

Weetabbix · 11/07/2024 07:15

I personally don't have a problem with them as long as they are properly designed with enclosed cubicles. I've been in a lot like that (they're quite common where I live), and I have never felt unsafe.

But I can see the issue around potential risk to women. I think they have to be very well thought out and designed for purpose in order to work - not just sticking a gender neutral sign on an existing toilet.

NewtGuineaPig · 11/07/2024 07:18

I may have been confused but followed the signs at station yesterday, down the stairs to the refurbished toilets which were advertised as all gender toilets but then at the bottom of the stairs there was a sign for women's to the left and men's to the right. In other places (theatre) that has meant one mixed block of toilets.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 11/07/2024 07:31

Kucinghitam · 11/07/2024 06:22

I've never (yet) been in mixed-sex toilets with the urinal and cubicle arrangement described here. I'd have backed out in 0.01 milliseconds! But I have been in venues with mixed-sex fully-enclosed cubicles located down a long corridor - and it has not been infrequent to walk past to see a bloke pissing without having closed the door, nor is it unusual to find the seats splashed with urine (it's almost a relief to find a loo with the seat up that I have to put down, in the hope that it hasn't been splashed). And I operate on the assumption that any previous male occupant won't have washed their hands, so after I wash my hands I have to think about how to hygienically unlock and open the door.

But on reflection and reading the posts of the ladies who adore mixed-sex public facilities, I'm perfectly happy for there to be mixed-sex (sorry, All Gender) toilets at a venue, as long as there is also proper and well-signposted provision of single sex toilets.

Furthermore, I am perfectly happy for said All Gender loos to consist of rows of open urinals next to a few flimsy cubicles. That way, all the Righteous folx can properly demonstrate how lovely it is all sharing together and nobody minds, and how men's pee/poo doesn't stink and how women are apparently just as dirty as men, whilst enjoying their inclusive joy and polishing their haloes.

And all we old dinosaurs can use the single-sex toilets like almost all women, and all decent men, much prefer.

Completely agree! All of those who it 'doesn't matter for me' can use mixed sex ones to their heart's content. As long as there are single sex provisions for the not as cool, inclusive, progressive, kind and forward thinking people who don't like them. Cater for all.

AgnesX · 11/07/2024 07:36

Welcome to the world of the disabled where loos are regularly abused.

The toileting of some people beggars belief. I feel sorry for the staff who have to/should look after them.

sashh · 11/07/2024 08:16

Sausagenbacon · 10/07/2024 20:04

I've used an all genders toilet (the watershed , Bristol). In my experience it was clean, and I didn't feel unsafe. But it just felt wrong. And my husband felt the same way. And I'm unlikely to go there again.
But we're going to have to get used to it, aren't we?

No we are not going to have to get used to it. The Equality Act allows for segregation on the grounds of 'sex' not 'gender'.

namesnamez · 11/07/2024 08:58

TIMs will continue to use the women's. They do not want third spaces. All GN toilets do is create more facilities for men. Men have a choice of three toilets now, actually, four if we include disabled. Women and girls lose out, as ever.

YorkshireTeaBiscuits · 11/07/2024 08:59

I went on holiday to Turkey a few years ago and all the loos were segregated with attendents on duty. One European guy tried to enter the ladies and was promptly told ladies only, mens facilities outside. He then said he was female and the look the attendant gave him was hilarious. He decided not to push his look further and went to the mens toilets instead.

WhereIsTheHare · 11/07/2024 09:01

Sausagenbacon · 10/07/2024 20:04

I've used an all genders toilet (the watershed , Bristol). In my experience it was clean, and I didn't feel unsafe. But it just felt wrong. And my husband felt the same way. And I'm unlikely to go there again.
But we're going to have to get used to it, aren't we?

There are separate male and female toilets in a completely traditional set up at the Watershed - accessed via the cafe, rather than the ones in the lobby by the cinema entrances. They even have a basket of sanitary stuff in the women’s. I was there on Saturday so I know that’s the case.

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