Lib Dem manifesto

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Has anyone seen it? They are pledging to recognise non binary identities in law and remove the need for medical reports for the GRA!

Definitely not voting for that!!

I don't see the logic for why the woman should get "the final say".

My experience (having actually done SPL) was most men thought staying at home would be horrendous and didn't want to, most women didn't want to give up "their" parental leave. Take ups for SPL have been low.

Greater involvement of men in childcare and support for men who may not fit the traditional stereotypes is important if we want more equality (and to reduce pressure of "having it all" on women).

This is a great policy that families can use to suit their circumstances. Any family where one partner is demanding the leave against the will of the other has quite significant marital issues already.

I'm not going to vote lib dem either, but this is a good policy for working mothers. Probably SAHMs too.

I think what you are calling 'determinism' is simply a recognition of biological reality; that it is women who carry a pregnancy; who give birth; who are most significantly impacted by having children.

Of course many women want to get back to work, or have to, but many others really do want a year off, or even longer. I'm aware of male partners who emotionally manipulate their partner into feeling guilty if she doesn't want to go back to work, or would like to work part time.

Even if you stay home during the early years, nobody has suggested that your children are the only thing about you. You can still take an interest in the world; develop skills, take up hobbies, read, engage with the world. I guess it depends on temperament - but I enjoyed creating a garden from scratch, learning about plants, developing my cooking skills.... I also got into interior design and even did a course on it........plus I had time to meet up with other women who were home based too, and developed some good friendships.

Many couples work from home now, and this can be a big factor in more equitable childcare arrangements; even though, I suggest, in the very early years, it will inevitable still mostly be the mother who wants the time off work.

Yes, we do women a great disservice if, as a society,
we fail to recognise that it's women who do the work and bear the costs of reproduction.

Pretending that that isn't the case isn't helping women. Supporting women to overcome this imbalance as far as possibleby it is the way to help, and that means decent mat leave.

Recognising the differences in our bodies and how this impacts our lives isn't 'determinism' unless you make the jump to 'and therefore you should be a stay at home mum' etc etc etc.

I think some women are afraid that acknowledging that our bodies are different to men's can be seen as an admission of weakness, but theres no point pretending, it helps no one.

We need to fight for equity, not pretend we're the same.

Many couples DO have martial problems. Many relationships ARE abusive.

This doesn't seem like a good reason to argue for policies that will disadvantage the women in those situations.

I guess it depends on whether your interest in feminism extends to all women or is restricted to 'women like me'.

Paternity leave could be extended without taking it from mothers.

@ ArabellaScott “Philosophically, I believe in the freedom of the individual to be who they want to be - and not to be told who they are by society. When society dictates to individuals, unhappiness and discrimination are not far behind. So for me, a trans woman is a woman, and a trans man is a man. For me, that's not a policy position, it's their reality and I respect it. “

If I wanted to be a teenager and insist on hanging out with my teen friends, would you respect that right?

@FolkestoneMassive you need to ask Ed Davey, not @ArabellaScott that. She was quoting the previous webchat that Ed Davey did in 2019.

Any family where one partner is demanding the leave against the will of the other has quite significant marital issues already

And so your answer is to take away the existing law protecting women’s and babies evidenced needs because’ marital issues gonna happen anyway’?

There are better ways to ensure equitable treatment, but ignoring biological differences isn’t it.

But women don't NEED a year off.

I was the one who posted originally about the downside of shared parental leave vs maternity leave.

Hardly any other nations have 12 months maternity leave. The reason we have it is because new Labour introduced it on the basis of evidence of benefit for the baby - not the 'woman' (or mother as we used to call her).

This thread is wild.

One poster calling the fact that acknowledging only women having babies is "determinist" and another suggesting that we shouldn't worry about the unintended consequences of policy on vulnerable women because they were probably in bad marriages anyway.

On a Feminist Board.

Did you read what the proposal says?
It's the same as now but more money and longer pat leave.
Noone is proposing "taking away existing law"

Really? Try reading again
The policy is a year of leave, that can be split between parents on negotiation. Same as now.

Any man forcing his wife back to work is abusive. And he could be doing the same under the current rules.

Stop misrepresenting posters.

The suggestion that men are less capable of looking after babies is quite determinist to be honest. Anything that encourages men to be active in looking after their small children is a good thing.
No where does this proposal say it MUST be shared. And your example of the abusive relationship exists as jeer the current system.

Men are less capable of breastfeeding.

Most don't breastfeed the whole year. You can also pump and mix feed. I was still breastfeeding when I 'ran' the Great North Run with my youngest. The world didn't end with my husband giving breast milk from the bottle.
The policy is giving people options. Options and choices are good. Or are we going to force women to breast feed for a whole year now?

Welcome to Gilead

No, of course not. The point is that the full year must remain as the full entitlement for women. Maternity leave must not be converted into only Shared Parental Leave, where women's maternity leave of a year is split between both parents. Any additional leave for fathers/parents should be on top of the current full entitlement for women.

I've also been struck by the lack of discussion of same sex couples in this exploration of parental leave.
Nobody is saying that women can't have the full year. Just that you can share it if you want. In my ideal world both parents would get a full year funded by the state/employers but that's clearly not going to happen.
Don't want to share the parents leave?
Fine, have that conversation with your partner and don't. But letting the leave be shared more equitably for people who want it to be is a good thing.
I'm fully in favour of policies which acknowledge that parenting is not a gendered thing. It's good to encourage both parents to take on a nurturing role and bond with their child.

parenting is not a gendered thing

What are you talking about. Of course it is.

@GrammarTeacher I've been at pains to refer to the father/other parent. I absolutely want to encourage shared parenting, and for men to be very much more involved in that. To have the choice to spend time with their small children. But absolutely not at the expense of the maternity rights that women currently have.

The current model of shared parental leave, by requiring the mother to give up part of her maternity leave to facilitate the shared leave, reinforces the idea that parenting is primarily the mother's role. So any additional leave for the father/other parent must be taken from the woman's allocation. Fathers/other parents must have their own separate entitlement that doesn't require use of the mother's maternity leave. So, LD manifesto has the aim to increase Paternity Leave to 6 weeks and increase pay, which is obviously a big improvement on 2 weeks at the current level of pay. But then it moves on to focussing on Shared Parental Leave, essentially wanting to turn Mat & Pat leave into just Shared Parental Leave. That will remove the current entitlement for women to have 52 weeks maternity leave, and make it a shared 52 weeks. I disagree with this.

Somehow, disagreeing with that means I want to make all women stay at home compulsorily for a year, force them to breastfeed, and turn the UK into Gilead. Hmm.

Absolutely. We need equity, not clumsy attempts to pretend women and men are exactly the same.

Even in a same sex (female) couple, the biological mother will have different needs than the other half of the couple.
While I believe in shared parenting, I am troubled by the tendency to downplay the immense impact of pregnancy, birth and the “fourth trimester” -and the months beyond - on the physical and emotional health of the actual mother.

The mother should get maternal leave. Other parents should get parental leave that has no effect on maternity leave, and don't need any negotiating.