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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let Women Speak Norwich - 08 Jun 2024, 13:00 – 15:00

109 replies

IwantToRetire · 07/06/2024 01:09

Norwich War Memorial, Market Pl, Norwich NR2 1NE, UK

Join us in Norwich!

At Let Women Speak we foster a community in which all women feel empowered to speak. We achieve this through our free speech events, they are free to attend. We are so proud that women across the world are using the #LetWomenSpeak hashtag as a rallying cry.

All Let Women Speak events are held in outdoor public places. Places are chosen so that they are as accessible as possible and not far from public transport.

There are no tickets, anyone can turn up, and anyone can speak (but we ask that men wait until the end). You can speak about whatever you like, these are free speech events.

As always, it is completely free to come to our Let Women Speak events, and no one will ask to see a ticket! However, at Let Women Speak we are very lucky to have an extraordinary team of stewards who give up their free time to enable women to speak. They are all volunteers, but we need to ensure that they’re not out of pocket. Each UK event needs a £2000 steward and security fund to make it possible. Thank you so much for your contribution to Let Women Speak! If you cannot contribute, please select £0, as this will give us a rough idea of numbers.

https://www.letwomenspeak.org/event-details/let-women-speak-norwich

Let Women Speak Norwich | Let Women Speak

<p>Join us in Norwich!</p> <p></p> <p>At Let Women Speak we foster a community in which all women feel empowered to speak.  We achieve this through our free speech events, they are free to attend.  We are so proud that women across the world are using...

https://www.letwomenspeak.org/event-details/let-women-speak-norwich

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Southwestten · 13/06/2024 18:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 17:14
Yes it's interesting that everyone is responsible at LWS when apparently no one in the Labour Party was responsible for MPs sharing a platform with Sarah Jane Baker, a convicted torturer, or SNP MPs for men with placards about decapitating TERFs

Yes.

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 18:58

The problem is not "everyone is responsible". The problem is the ostrich like denial of something that "never happens" happening in front of your eyes.

It's a bit like Alice Through The Looking Glass watching posters who were previously very good at seeing through bullshit lose the ability and turn into TRA-esque "This never happens!!!!" people.

BezMills · 13/06/2024 19:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/06/2024 17:14

Yes it's interesting that everyone is responsible at LWS when apparently no one in the Labour Party was responsible for MPs sharing a platform with Sarah Jane Baker, a convicted torturer, or SNP MPs for men with placards about decapitating TERFs.

The Stone Cold Legend
Did another great event
Haiku for true facts

OldCrone · 13/06/2024 21:03

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 16:22

🙄
It's not "safeguarding" to try to reinvigorate section 28. It's censorship. It's not "safeguarding" to dictate to teachers what information they must share with parents, regardless of if there is a risk to the child in sharing that. It's dangerous.
Moral panic never was a positive way to approach a societal issue. Luckily we have the Cass review advocating for evidence led approaches rather than authoritarianism.

It's not "safeguarding" to dictate to teachers what information they must share with parents

Actually it is. Perhaps you need to 'educate yourself' about what safeguarding is.

borntobequiet · 13/06/2024 21:13

It's not "safeguarding" to dictate to teachers what information they must share with parents, regardless of if there is a risk to the child in sharing that

No one is “dictating” such a thing to teachers. Parents should be given such information unless there is evidence of potential risk to the child. Stop spreading misinformation.

MishyJDI · 14/06/2024 04:53

hellointernet12 · 08/06/2024 20:26

I've been reading and listening to the people on the other side and they honestly truly believe that we hate trans people and don't want them to exist. This isn't true, we just don't think that they are literally women. That doesn't mean we hate them or don't want them to exist. Well obviously I don't speak for all TERFs but I certainly don't hate them and I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case for most of us.

It's bizarre to me how they have misunderstood us so much. It is bizarre listening to them talk about what they think we feel, it's like being in a weird parallel dimension. This probably has alot to do with the TRA peddling lies that LWS is a nazi movement.

Edited

Well one example: Helen Joyce suggesting every trans person is a problem in a sane world. For a start. Doesn’t sound very supportive of trans people. No wonder the kids fear GCs

SinnerBoy · 14/06/2024 05:54

CassieMaddox · Yesterday 16:03

Any issue where you can appeal to emotion not fact, generate "fear of the outsider" and hyopthesise "a plot" has potential to be a central tenet of fascism.

Well, you have encapsulated the Trans Extremist Zealot side perfectly, there. They shout and rant and appeal to emotions, either free of fact, or counter-factual. They deny medical and scientific facts and resort to emotional blackmail, demanding compliance to their ideology.

Any dissent is met with an aggressive response, from shouting and intimidation, to actual violence.

And for some reason, you think that they're the good guys; to my mind, you have a blind spot a thousand yards wide.

NancyDrawed · 14/06/2024 07:18

MishyJDI · 14/06/2024 04:53

Well one example: Helen Joyce suggesting every trans person is a problem in a sane world. For a start. Doesn’t sound very supportive of trans people. No wonder the kids fear GCs

Taken out of context, I believe, when you read or watch what she actually said.

Which was along the lines of we should be trying to limit the social contagion of Gender Identity Ideology because who sane would ever think that surgically and/or hormonally altering the healthy bodies of children who don't fit into the sex based stereotypes of their culture is a good idea?

So although perhaps clumsily put at the time it was said I don't disagree with that.
I will try and find the clip where she said that in due course, but there are lots of her interviews on YouTube so it might take some time!

SinnerBoy · 14/06/2024 07:31

Yes, that's another TEZ trick, repeating words out of context, or quoting half a sentence, to change the meaning entirely.

Helleofabore · 14/06/2024 07:55

MishyJDI · 14/06/2024 04:53

Well one example: Helen Joyce suggesting every trans person is a problem in a sane world. For a start. Doesn’t sound very supportive of trans people. No wonder the kids fear GCs

And again you have chosen to twist what Helen Joyce actually said. Here it is:

"We can't win this by saying you know there's 60 x million people in this country and we've got to persuade all of them or a great majority of them. We've got to get through to the decision makers and in the meantime while we're trying to get through to the decision makers we have to try to limit the harm. And that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition and that's for two reasons. One of them is that every one of those people is a person who's been damaged."

"But the second one is every one of those people is basically, you know, a huge problem to a sane world. Like if you've got people that and whether they're transitioned whether they're happily transitioned, whether they're unhappily transitioned, whether they're de-transitioned. If you've got people who've dissociated from their sex in some way, every one of those people is someone who needs special accommodation."

"In a sane world where we re-acknowledge the the truth of sex and I mean the people who've been damaged by it. The children have been put through this. Those people deserve every accommodation we can possibly make but every one of them is a difficulty, yes. And I mean I know that sounds heartless.."

Do tell us mishy:

In a 'sane' world, why are male children sleeping in the same rooms as female children thereby lowering the safeguarding standards for those female children?

In a 'sane' world, should a male child be getting undressed in a shared changing space as female children? And how is this robust safeguarding?

In a 'sane' world, why are male people competing in female sporting events thereby decreasing safety, fairness and opportunity for female people?

In a 'sane' world why is any one undergoing extreme body modifications, with a a very high failure rate and regret rate, just to cope with everyday life, without extensive and of very long duration therapy before they ever make such a decision.

In a 'sane' world, how is puberty, a 'natural' body process that is vital for maturation of humans (including brain development) considered something to be stopped and substituted with artificial hormones. Artificial hormones that cause damage to the body because those hormones are not healthy for a person of that sex category. How is it 'sane' to tell children that they are going through the 'wrong' puberty? And how is it 'sane' that an environment of fear of natural puberty has been so created?

Let's have a discussion that you can bring your evidence to, evidence to support your claims.

See. You declare that her 'sane world' comment is based on some intention of hatred. No. Her 'sane' world is about making sure children are properly protected and not medicalised, and that all people have the care and the opportunities that they need.

Not that women and children have been de prioritised.

And that no person in this world is forced in some way to have to lie to make others happy. No one has to lie to subvert the truth under threat of job or any opportunity loss, loss of loved ones under any duress, including guilt and emotional manipulation. Because how sane is a world where people are punished for speaking the truth. For following the proven science that there is no materially real way for any human on this planet to change sex. And that sex needs to prioritised in many situations, not someone's gender identity.

Helleofabore · 14/06/2024 08:18

Here is another.

In what 'sane world', does any clinician create a physical medical patient for life to treat a psychological condition? Particularly in a society where social health care is drastically under funded and under resourced and this treatment amounts to elective extreme body modification.

I mean, I am happy to keep listing the very issues that I believe that Helen Joyce was referring to. But I am just as keen to hear your detailed and evidenced answers.

Helleofabore · 14/06/2024 08:41

Sorry, to be clear, in the above, I am talking about taking a healthily functional body and making the person into a life long physical medical patient requiring often constant, but certainly frequent, medical treatment for the created medical condition/s.

AlisonDonut · 14/06/2024 08:54

MishyJDI · 14/06/2024 04:53

Well one example: Helen Joyce suggesting every trans person is a problem in a sane world. For a start. Doesn’t sound very supportive of trans people. No wonder the kids fear GCs

A sane world doesn't remove the genitals of people just because they like the 'wrong' clothes/have mental health issues/want it.

Helleofabore · 14/06/2024 08:56

MishyJDI · 14/06/2024 04:53

Well one example: Helen Joyce suggesting every trans person is a problem in a sane world. For a start. Doesn’t sound very supportive of trans people. No wonder the kids fear GCs

Oh... and great job dehumanising people who disagree with you yet again with 'the GCs'.

AlisonDonut · 14/06/2024 09:10

They absolutely FEAR the GCs who...tell the truth and don't come at them with drugs and scalpels.

Right ho buddy.

NancyDrawed · 14/06/2024 09:11

Ah, thanks @Helleofabore

That has saved me trawling through hours of interviews (although I always find Helen really interesting to listen to)

So my recollection was slightly off but broadly correct.

OldCrone · 14/06/2024 09:16

Helleofabore · 14/06/2024 08:41

Sorry, to be clear, in the above, I am talking about taking a healthily functional body and making the person into a life long physical medical patient requiring often constant, but certainly frequent, medical treatment for the created medical condition/s.

And all this is done to the bodies of people who allegedly don't even have a medical condition.

It's not like they're even doing this to try to cure an illness.

Healthy people apparently need to be made into less healthy people (with the help of doctors) in order to 'live their best lives'.

How does that work then?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/06/2024 09:28

Joyce's point was that when sanity returns and society stops believing trans people's disordered thinking about their sex means they have an actual inner cross sex personality that needs to be accomodated as the opposite sex, we will still be left with people who have made severe medical changes to their bodies in the expectation of "being" the opposite sex in society.

Those people will have to fit into a society that is no longer prepared to accept them as the opposite sex, and this is going to be emotionally and potentially practically difficult for them.

Joyce was expressing sympathy that while sanity needs to be restored, there will be nevertheless be a human cost for the people who have been caught up in the social mania of cross sex personalities.

Helleofabore · 14/06/2024 09:37

Here you are Mishy. I wonder if this is a good example of what illustrates Helen's point.

What medical doctor should allow a child would go ahead with treatment while that child believes that they will 'grow a functioning penis' by taking testosterone? That the child has given fully informed consent to the treatment while still holding this expectation.

Can you explain how this should have been allowed? And I wonder if this is the clinic that you once started a thread on to praise one of the clinicians.

https://x.com/Bernard_Lane/status/1800864778497441970

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/doctors-defiance-on-childs-sex-swap/news-story/3fe1e0bf9daeecfe34c8b9810b583f57

Doctor’s defiance on child’s sex swap

A doctor from one of Australia’s largest gender clinics says a child who believed taking cross-sex hormones would help her grow male genitalia is still able to show mature thinking in the area of gender.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/doctors-defiance-on-childs-sex-swap/news-story/3fe1e0bf9daeecfe34c8b9810b583f57

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/06/2024 10:11

CassieMaddox · 13/06/2024 16:22

🙄
It's not "safeguarding" to try to reinvigorate section 28. It's censorship. It's not "safeguarding" to dictate to teachers what information they must share with parents, regardless of if there is a risk to the child in sharing that. It's dangerous.
Moral panic never was a positive way to approach a societal issue. Luckily we have the Cass review advocating for evidence led approaches rather than authoritarianism.

Completely wrong & dangerous to give such incorrect advice.
Safeguarding is predicated on partnership with parents which is enshrined in legislation and guidance. Parents - even abusive parents - are involved and consulted at all stages in the safeguarding process with only the courts having the power to remove parental rights.
Schools have no legal right to keep secret that a child thinks their body is the wrong sex from parents. Decisions like this need multi agency discussions - not fearmongering about Section 28 and censorship. This is a tactic too often used by activists determined to disrupt the essential child / parent relationship for reasons best known to themselves. It needs to be challenged every time..

BezMills · 14/06/2024 10:22

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/06/2024 10:11

Completely wrong & dangerous to give such incorrect advice.
Safeguarding is predicated on partnership with parents which is enshrined in legislation and guidance. Parents - even abusive parents - are involved and consulted at all stages in the safeguarding process with only the courts having the power to remove parental rights.
Schools have no legal right to keep secret that a child thinks their body is the wrong sex from parents. Decisions like this need multi agency discussions - not fearmongering about Section 28 and censorship. This is a tactic too often used by activists determined to disrupt the essential child / parent relationship for reasons best known to themselves. It needs to be challenged every time..

very much agree. I'd like to think any parent would.

SidewaysOtter · 14/06/2024 10:23

Ah, dear old Mish. Never knowingly quoting something in the correct context Hmm

BezMills · 14/06/2024 10:26

Just when I was thinking we were running short of high frequency high amplitude shitposting... a hero returns

MrsOvertonsWindow · 14/06/2024 10:44

BezMills · 14/06/2024 10:22

very much agree. I'd like to think any parent would.

I reckon most parents do. This is driven by activists - so many of them men, few of them parents, an alarming number with an interest in alienating children from their parents.
The worry is that some schools (and unions) have failed to exercise critical thinking and pay attention to the law and instead went along with the belief that safeguarding could be eroded by queer theory activism.

SidewaysOtter · 14/06/2024 10:47

BezMills · 14/06/2024 10:26

Just when I was thinking we were running short of high frequency high amplitude shitposting... a hero returns

I know.

"Hey wims! I know you're discussing something rationally but can I just throw in a misquote/random opinion/bit of scolding to distract you all?"