Rape and Hamas and the denial of rape.

[ThereAreNoSloesOnThere]

There have been a few threads on FWR about this before. I have lurked. We knew and know this is and was happening yet apparently it's okay if it is is happening to Jewish women or Israeli women.

I have long had a horrifying suspicion that the reason why so many of the women and girl hostages have continued to be held is until they are released with the evidential products of their rapes- the babies.

I fail completely to understand how this is being brushed aside and ignored.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13447359/Hamas-terrorists-taunt-young-Israeli-women-threat-rape-footage.html

There is a strand on the left that views everything through a lens of colonial power vs freedom fighters and resistance. Leaving aside the fact that that is a wholly inaccurate reading of Israel's situation, for those people it does not sit comfortably to view Hamas as sadistic rapists attacking young, peaceful festival goers. It is easier to deny/ minimise / downplay the actions of Hamas on 7th Oct (and indeed afterwards) as this does not challenge their view of the situation in that part of the Middle East. See also- all Israelis are white Europeans.

You sound like a very angry person.

And actually @Dependabledirt I distinctly remember talking to my FIL on Oct 8th and my view point was what happened was awful and supported Israel's decision to retaliate against Hamas. I do not support Hamas.

However, my view point has changed as what's happening cannot be justified with the events of Oct 7th.

I've done a lot more research in that time and get my news from various places none of which are the daily fail.

My support is with innocent civilians in all countries that suffer at the hands of their 'leaders' and yes that includes Israel and Palestine, and I say Palestine because the West Bank has been attacked and children arrested even though it is not Hamas run.

The article is only up for discussion because it's against Hamas. If an article was written in the same way but aimed at Israel, would you be discussing it too?

Hmm I was accused of being an angry person when trying to humanise Israelis on another thread, is this another silencing tactic. Plus ca change.

Well, the tone does come across as angry so...🤷‍♀️

Perhaps the voice you're reading it in, in your head, is angry. They are words, no adjectives, emojis or grrrr subtitles.

Ladybird Johnson apparently said no-one can make you feel something without your consent.

Shouldn’t we be angry about the rape of women across the globe by men in war and out of it?

This argument falls down because this thread is not about justifying the attacks on Palestine.
So no need for your ‘balance’.

But as your other thread makes clear, where you claim the BBC has a bias against Palestine, and in favor of Ukraine, despite Palestine having pushed Ukraine out of the news for months, you are not about balance but about wanting your particular worldview reflected everywhere.

Yea I am angry at the way the people have denied, minimized and deflected from the appalling barbarity on a Oct 7th. Unapologetically so. It’s completely justified anger. Watching the callousness and dehumanizing of the Israeli victims from ordinary people had really changed my view of humanity. It’s shocked me to my core.
The fact you think my anger about this is a fault does not enhance my view of you.

Well you put it better than me. This board is usually very good for that.

It's not being ignored because they are Israeli women, it's because they are women. There are credible reports of sexual violence used against both Israeli & Palestinian women, not just in this current escalation but going back decades.

We should be angry.

I believe that Israeli women were sexually assaulted on October 7, that it is repugnant, that those who committed the offences should be prosecuted.

I don't believe that the denial of sexual assault was unique to this situation and it minimises conflicts where similar patterns existed, such as the Congo. It is in fact typical for rape as a weapon of war to be underestimated and minimised. Saying that "it has never happened like this before" is both untrue (and there is evidence posted up thread about this) and minimising to previous victims.

Presumably that includes the rape of Palestinian men, women and children.

You've clearly misinterpreted my post on the other thread...stalker. What I said there were actual observations of actual headlines and reports so don't come at me for that 🥱

I've got better things to do than go back and forth with you @Dependabledirt .

I'd like to say though that just because people ask for links or 'evidence' of what they are being told by the media like the original news article, doesn't auto make them deniers. Interrogating information to get to the truth isn't a bad thing.

Stalker?

I would still be discussing it if the article was about Israel. As to the rest, the children being arrested in the West Bank are teenagers (think 15 to 19) who are using slingshots - a missile from one of these can kill (remember David and Goliath -it's that sort of weapon). I do not like anyone being mistreated and I do not like the bombing of Gaza, but Hamas and co (ordinary Palestinians) committed atrocities on Oct 7th. The casualties in Gaza are caused by Hamas, not Israel, because Hamas are putting their bases next to refugees from North Gaza, and are aiming weapons at Israel from those positions. Let Hamas come out and fight, wearing uniforms and not using women and children as shields.

You are lying about the West Bank- or maybe it's just wishful thinking because you still desperately claw to the hope that Israel's army isn't the racist violent reality.

Children in the West Bank are arrested and tortured for attending non violent rallies. For having parents involved in politics (not Hamas- any politics). For no reason at all- just so Palestinians remember where they stand.

Children in the West Bank are shot and killed by Israel if they think that the children will throw stones. Never mind that they are throwing them at armoured vehicles, out of total frustration of living a life under oppression and restriction by Israel at every turn.

I know this because I lived there. It happened to my family. It happens to nearly every Palestinian family.

I'm sorry that happened to your family @Yazzi ❤️

I am not lying about the sling shots. As to the suppression of political affiliation in the West Bank I do not know, but if those politics involve 'from the river to the sea' i.e. the destruction of Israel, I am not really surprised. There is no reliable evidence for torture of children by Israel. And I do not consider 15 to 19 year olds children - I do not know many five-year-olds, or indeed 11-year-olds, interested in attending political meetings, so I am assuming the children you speak of are teenagers.
I think a Jewish homeland would have been better founded somewhere else than the Middle East, and had the Holocaust not happened perhaps we would not be in this position now for there would not have been the impetus of guilt. But the Holocaust did happen and we have Israel, and if I had to choose I would prefer, as a woman, to live in Israel for all its faults, than anywhere else in the Middle East.

I’m so sorry @Yazzi

Not really sure what that last sentence has to do with anything really, but well done to you I guess?

It is of no surprise to me that you would not consider a Palestinian 15 year old a child, despite being a child in almost every legal and political system, in year 9 or 10 of school, unable to drive or drink alcohol in western countries. It makes it easier to justify the horror Israel enacts onto our beautiful precious boys.

I said their PARENTS are involved in politics. The children are arrested to punish and deter their parents. Or for whatever reason. Our family member was arrested for being in the same area that a settler was attacked (he has a physical disability making it impossible to be him who did it). Then they are held in administrative detention without charge. Sometimes for years. Often tortured. Often sexually abused. Our relative has been in administrative detention for two decades without even a trial.

But again congratulations on deciding Israel is your middle eastern country of choice "as a woman". How feminist.

Well, I would prefer to live in Israel. I am sorry about your relative. But no, I do not consider a 15-year-old a child (when I was that age most of the 15-year-olds were at work in full-time jobs), though I am perfectly aware that my country says that legally they are. But they are minors and suggesting they are children removes all responsibility from them, and they know perfectly well what they are doing. I am not particularly a supporter of Israel, but Hamas committed gang rape, rape and murder. Currently they are causing the deaths of women and children in Gaza by living among them, setting up their bases in and around refugee camps.

What about 8 year olds or 13 year olds @Grammarnut do you consider that a child?

Israel have been kidnapping, torturing and terrorising children for years. Since Oct 7th alone it's reported over 600 children from the West Blank alone have been detained. Do you think throwing stones or other pathetic reason you can come up with justifies that? Many reports of rape too. Although the IDF probably don't see it as rape given you can legally have sex in Israel with a 14 year old if they 'consent.'

Do some independent research and open your eyes up a bit to what's really going on.

Legal age of responsibility is 10 in UK isn't it.

That's how old James Bulger's killers were.

12 in Scotland, but also in Scotland under 25 year olds who commit atrocious crimes just get a pat on the head