Please help - receipts needed for important debate

[NameChangeAgainandOncemore]

I am part of an organisation that is currently imploding due to trans ideology. There are one or two brave souls trying to put forth facts and figures regarding the idea that most people believe that sex is immutable - can anyone find some solid research I can quickly quote on this? We've provided a yougov poll on how many people think that Trans Women shouldn't partake in women's (biological female) sports which was quickly rebuffed by the argument that it's not possible to extrapolate from that that the same people think sex is immutable. Can anyone help?

Can I suggest you read probably the last 10-15 pages of break it down thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

there is a lot of links there. I think I stashed even the links for poll results Re sports there too. Sorry. I have lots of links but not able to post them right now. I have put most of them though in that thread.

I wonder if anyone would be bold enough to suggest that humans can actually change sex? Nobody very very few people really believe someone can, so what do they actually mean?

Why does it matter if "most people believe" sex is immutable? Surely what matters is the scientific evidence that sex genuinely is immutable in humans?

Simularly, why does it matter if "most people believe" males shouldn't be allowed to enter female sports? What matters is the scientific evidence that men (even men taking hormones) have biomechanical advantages due to their pelvic structure, larger hearts, greater lung capacity, stronger/denser bones, greater muscle mass and strength etc. All of which mean males competing against females in sports is unfair.

In the US, "most people believe" that the death penalty is right. Nearly half of people believe that even in the UK. What people believe isn't a sensible measure of anything.

I'm not sure you'll find something as clear as you'd like. I suspect plenty of people still think - in an unexamined way - that there is a level of surgery and hormones at which a male becomes female.

Is there some other way you can tackle this?

Can they provide evidence that sex in humans is mutable?

If not, why do you have to prove it isn't?

It is ludicrous and impossible to talk to these people. They are stating that the idea that sex is immutable amounts to 'state-sanctioned transphobia'

They are sorry that those who would be 'irrevocably damaged' by reading such a thing had to be exposed to the phrase 'sex is immutable' and shocked that the trustees would even write it down let alone send it in an email. They are baffled by the news that the belief that sex is immutable is protected in law.

I think I might just leave the organisation and bury myself in a large hole or similar for a couple of decades

I agree with the idea that they need to provide evidence that humans can change sex. If they have that evidence it would be truly groundbreaking, but they won't have it as it doesn't exist.

It shouldn't matter what people believe, it should be the scientific facts that are considered.

After all, there are plenty of people who believe the earth is flat, but there is currently no compulsion for anyone else to agree with them...

The onus should be on them to provide proof surely?

@WallaceinAnderland @ScarlettSunset @Toseland

They aren't asking me to prove sex is immutable, they want to see proof that the majority of people believe that it is

https://fairplayforwomen.com/

This website may have some useful info.

Or you contact them to see if they have the info for you.

Have they provided information about WHY that is what they want to see?

😊

Why not put your energy into fighting some actual issues.

The proof is that not one sperm ejaculator has been changed into an egg producer and gestator.

@ScarlettSunset I think it is because this is a charity with inclusion and equality at its heart, and they believe they are on the morally correct side of the argument, where most people think sex isn't real. So if most people generally think something perhaps it adds weight? But since it turns out it's actually quite difficult to prove that most people believe in a widely proven scientific fact, I am regretting positing it.

It doesn't actually make sense on many levels, since the championing of minorities is what we are about, and if (as they seem to be implying) the idea that sex is immutable is a minority view, then we should be championing it. Maybe I'll say that

@AlisonDonut but how do I prove that most people think or understand that? It's actually madly difficult

@Peonies12 without searching your name I can't tell but I'm assuming you think sex isn't real?

I think it definitely will be difficult to prove most people believe that. For a lot of us it's not something we've ever needed to even think about, like maybe gravity, I don't actually need to believe in it to know it's a fact. And because of that there's not exactly a load of surveys asking whether someone believes it or not.
I think you should ask them for evidence that the majority of people believe that humans can change sex. They won't be able to categorically prove that either unless they have asked literally everyone in the entire world.

This whole idea that someone thinking and writing/saying that sex exists and is relevant for policy and law can be "harmful" to someone else has been thoroughly debunked by the Jo Phoenix case. The judgment specifically addressed this issue.

That document is in the public domain, but Sex Matters have just produced a resource on it - it's aimed at universities, but is broadly applicable in any workplace.

The Sex Matters briefing is here:

Population growth.

Do any of these people have children? Did their majority belief that sex is mutable allow two ejaculators to conceive a child?

If the majority believe sex is mutable then the population would be diminishing.

The "quick rebuttal" you describe suggests to me that any evidence you provide will be dispatched. In which case I would get together the "brave souls" and stand your ground with logic.

People are born one or other sex. These people (all of us) need facilities for our sex. No-one changes sex - cosmetic changes can be made through medication or intervention. In that case maybe an organisation makes accommodation to be sensitive. But no-one has to lie about that. The words "be kind" are commonly now used to mean "be quiet". This is not kind.

The onus is not on you brave souls to argue against a fiction. It is on the narrators of that fiction to find accommodation with you. 5 years ago this would have seemed ludicrous.

Alternatively could you bounce back to them some of the TRA arguments that "no-one is saying sex isn't real/binary/immutable. That's a lie spread by TERFs" blah blah blah. I definitely remember that being argued and feeling whiplash - I will see if I can get hold of any reference that's useful to you. Maybe someone else can remember?

That might help if they are demanding proof of what people believe rather than what are the biological facts.