Please help - receipts needed for important debate

[NameChangeAgainandOncemore]

I am part of an organisation that is currently imploding due to trans ideology. There are one or two brave souls trying to put forth facts and figures regarding the idea that most people believe that sex is immutable - can anyone find some solid research I can quickly quote on this? We've provided a yougov poll on how many people think that Trans Women shouldn't partake in women's (biological female) sports which was quickly rebuffed by the argument that it's not possible to extrapolate from that that the same people think sex is immutable. Can anyone help?

It's really sad. The organisation really does mean well. But how can the statement 'sex is immutable' cause irrevocable harm to vulnerable people? My brain simply cannot compute it. Do they think I mean gender? As in, gender cannot be changed? They must think that, but if so, they are so thick there's no hope

I think majority of biologists believe so. Maybe look into stuff about animals, but then I suppose the goal posts will be moved and then they'll talk about how people feel. Can you ask them if race and age is the same? And if not why when it has the same biological links as gender

Jazz Jennings on X: "If we are speaking about biology, then sure, you can say that I'll always have XY chromosomes and never be a female. However, if we are discussing gender, then we are talking about identity & expression, & I am here declaring that I undeniably identify as a woman!!! Gender > Sex" / X

And this article contradicts itself constantly but this quote in particular "It should be noted that trans people do not generally believe sex is not real; indeed, discomfort with the sex of our bodies is a frequent challenge for trans people. ": Opinion | Sex Does Not Mean Gender. Equating Them Erases Trans Lives. - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I am not sure how much good it will do you since the rules can change within a sentance. But if they are demanding you prove most people don't think you can change sex maybe pointing out that "Akshully most trans people don't either - Terfs pretend they do as part of their cunning word play" might help.

Jeez there is no hope for these people.

The polls that YOUGOV have run every two years are a useful barometer on the growing opposition of the public to gender nonsense. The last one was 2022 so I hope we are about to get another.

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1

Or point out that pretty much all of the public messaging says gender not sex: Can You Legally Change Your Gender in the UK (ukdeedpolloffice.org)

I don't think that will help much as they will just move the goalposts - sometimes sex and gender are the same, sometimes they are different but gender (identity) is the important bit.

As a thought experiment it's quite interesting I suppose - if sex were mutable then there would be no transgender people at all, only male people and female people. No one would need to identify as anything, they could just be it.

Actually we could still have transgender people, those who decided they wanted to remain in their sexed bodies but dress like a stereotype of the opposite / an invented gender - just not transexual people. But would those people still demand to be treated as opposite sex?

Mind is porridge again now

Can they prove (with poll data) that most people think the sky is blue, that water is wet? People don’t run polls like that, because sex being immutable is not something on which it is possible to have an opinion, it is a fact.

TRAs are always saying that sex and gender are different (totally agree) but then as soon as someone says you can’t change sex, they lose their shit.

Does it matter?

That's the law. Sex is real otherwise how would any babies be born?

The focus shouldn't be on persuading people that other people believe something but on keeping the company out of court.

What are you trying to do?

Review policy? Stop an insistence on pronouns? Something else?

old thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3490428-seeking-stats-what-proportion-believe-that-TWAW

yougov survey (prob a more recent one somewhere)
https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1?redirect_from=%2Ftopics%2Fsociety%2Farticles-reports%2F2022%2F07%2F20%2Fwhere-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Why would people have any problem with "trans women" in women's sports if they believed it was possible for males to change their sex?

I'm afraid it sounds like a deliberately disingenuous and bad faith argument, OP and one you're unlikely to win unless you find the exact wording that a majority of people "believe sex is immutable."

This report is two years old but you might find some of it interesting: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.moreincommon.org.uk%2Fmedia%2Fgiljcopo%2Fbritons-and-gender-identity-navigating-common-ground-and-division-june-2022.pdf&psig=AOvVaw1efbp5nO9drEH9gywa-CXS&ust=1716047055878000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CAgQr5oMahcKEwiIxP7Kg5WGAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

This. It doesn’t matter what you say OP you could produce a poll with 100% of ppl saying sex is immutable and they’d immediately say “ah but this poll only surveyed 10,000 ppl, you need a bigger sample size”. They’ll always move the goalposts

it’s not an argument you can win because they don’t want evidence, they want submission

Yes, precisely this.

They’re asking you to prove that most people believe something bloody obvious that’s a known fact. Tell them that. Tell them you don’t believe in gravity and actually most people don’t believe in gravity either. Then, when they tell you that most people do believe in gravity, say that you can’t accept that unless they find a poll showing that’s so.

When they get grumpy, point out to them that what they’re asking is exactly the same flavour of stupid. Also point out to them that you think they’re conflating sex and gender which is dreadfully transphobic.

YY, I suggest doing what @BreatheAndFocus suggests.

if mammals could change sex why haven’t we used that knowledge for good. How many animals could have been saved from extinction, when there are only 2 males left or 2 females. Why didn’t we just change their sex, if it’s such an easy thing for humans to do? It’s just such a ridiculous belief.

Sorry dont have the links but sure you can find them, so would suggest if they are about equality and inclusion then they should be very aware that their behaviour towards you, let alone potential users, is exactly why Maya Forstater won her case.

Even if they think (rather then know) what the majority of people think, if they want to be inclusive then they have to be inclusive of all, not just the minorities they think deserve to be included.

And as you pointed out if GC believers are a minority then they should be working doubly hard to make sure they (we) will feel included in their work!

Best of luck.

I suspect as others have said any stats you produce will be questioned as being from a doubtful source or something.

And maybe if it is more than just you questioning it, say you feel that you are others who are also GC want to set up a staff support group as you feel oppressed by the organisation, as an employer has not rights to infringe your personal beliefs.

I'm not sure there's any grounds to get lawyers involved, it's a charity / union of people who do a certain self employed job with a volunteer board. It's just frustrating. There is some published guidance on the fact that we believe TWAW (which has caused all this) but it's not mandatory

@BreatheAndFocus why is conflating sex and gender transphobic? This is exactly what they are doing imo

Because it’s subsuming gender into sex and denying the existence of gender - ie a gender identity that is ‘different from your sex’. Lots of TRAs use this when you try to discuss sex and they say that sex and gender are two different things.

@BreatheAndFocus this makes sense - I think my colleagues actually believe you can change sex. I don't think they've been paying attention