Please help - receipts needed for important debate

[NameChangeAgainandOncemore]

I am part of an organisation that is currently imploding due to trans ideology. There are one or two brave souls trying to put forth facts and figures regarding the idea that most people believe that sex is immutable - can anyone find some solid research I can quickly quote on this? We've provided a yougov poll on how many people think that Trans Women shouldn't partake in women's (biological female) sports which was quickly rebuffed by the argument that it's not possible to extrapolate from that that the same people think sex is immutable. Can anyone help?

I think my colleagues actually believe you can change sex

Oh, dear. The Endocrine society were forced to release a statement saying that humans are a dichotomously sexed species a few years back.

I can dig it out.

https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/42/3/219/6159361

@ArabellaScott this is gold. I can't believe they felt the need to issue it but surely it cannot be argued against? I'll report back

I'd probably ask them as well, which born male was the first one to give birth as this is really exciting news that you want to share far and wide.

A friend of mine was in a similar position with an organisation she was in. In the end the organisation made the decision to recognise that people have a wide range of views on this topic and that as it wasn’t of central importance to the existence of the organisation they would just all agree to disagree rather than constantly try to convince each other of their position. A couple of TRAs stropped off because they couldn’t tolerate differences of opinion but it seems to have worked relatively well other than that. Could you do something similar?

A friend of mine was in a similar position with an organisation she was in. In the end the organisation made the decision to recognise that people have a wide range of views on this topic and that as it wasn’t of central importance to the existence of the organisation they would just all agree to disagree rather than constantly try to convince each other of their position.

What an eminently sensible decision.

Groundbreaking.

@Signalbox Yes would love to do this. However, anyone who suggests biological sex is real is being hounded and shouted at for being a bigot. Hopefully it will calm down. Trans has nothing to do with what we do. I don't think we have any trans members or even any trans service users. It's ludicrous.

We are going to end up having two organisations for every single issue or interest group if this carries on. A knit and stitch group for those who believe there are 100 genders and another one for those who only believe in two sexes. Has there ever been such a divisive issue as transgenderism?

I hope you've found the posts here useful, OP. I feel for you, having to deal with this wall of misinformed eejitry. I sense your frustration. You must feel like an astronaut who has actually seen the earth from space, surrounded by Flat Earthers..🌍
As well as accumulating facts, maybe you could also work on not getting rattled, which must be very difficult, staying confident in the knowledge that you're right, and they're not. Quiet broken record: 'But that's not true/accurate/justified/scientific/factual/reasonable. Or maybe even legal.'

Good luck, stay strong, you're not alone.

But why? It isn't an argument with a 'morally correct' side, it's a scientific fact. The number of people who believe a fact doesn't affect how true it is.

Things 'most people believed' through history have included:

• The sun goes round the earth.
• Educating women diverts blood from their wombs to their brain, and makes them infertile.
• All genetic material to make a baby comes from the man, women are merely incubating vessels and make no actual contribution.
• If you travel faster than 30mph your lungs will explode.
• The world was created by killing a giant and cutting off his testicles.

If we relied on what 'most people believe' we'd still be living in trees and probably not even have progressed as far as hitting things with blunt rocks.

@NoBinturongsHereMate that's the heart of the issue really. There is apparently a consensus in some areas of society (predominantly the areas I used to think I belonged in) that people can change sex, and that to think otherwise is some kind of crime against oppressed minorities

Eppur si muove.

Are you in a position to point out that they are leaving themselves wide open to being taken to a tribunal if staff are genuinely being bullied for saying something that is now well established as being an acceptable view?

I’m sure I saw in an recent interview with Helen Joyce from Sex Matters that they had some recent polling that would overwhelmingly show most people think men cannot be in women’s sports, single sex spaces etc, no matter how they identify.

Maybe get in touch with them. I’m sure they would assist in anyway they can.

@PriOn1 this isn't an employer. They are an umbrella organisation of people who all do the same kind of self employed work. They provide insurance if you are a member, that kind of thing.

Then as a service provider they should just provide the service you all need in your self employed work.

They have no remit to start talking about political beliefs, any more than they should put out a statement saying everyone should be vegitarian.

Tribunals are not only for employers. All service providers are bound by the Equality Act - and therefore Forstater.

I think a pertinent issue here is also how misguided people can be about what helps and hinders those who are distressed by their sex.

Effective therapy involves building resilience in relation to aspects of life outside of your control. The philosophy underpinning 'trigger warnings' and 'safe spaces' works against this have led to approaches based on building resilience to be framed as victim blaming and a bad thing.

Surely if the majority of people don't think sex is immutable, the UK isn't terf island but is one giant safe space!