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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

185 replies

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:05

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

OP posts:
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Screamingabdabz · 12/05/2024 02:09

I think you’re right. Most people in RL just revert to what comes naturally. It’s only if your livelihood or reputation is at stake that this becomes a jeopardy situation.

lonelywater · 12/05/2024 02:24

its dead simple-anyone who wants me to lie about the reality I can see with my own eyes can shove it.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:27

Screamingabdabz · 12/05/2024 02:09

I think you’re right. Most people in RL just revert to what comes naturally. It’s only if your livelihood or reputation is at stake that this becomes a jeopardy situation.

Yes, indeed. I'm sure Graham's job won't be at risk, as he's far too big a name; but I bet he'll still have his collar felt in some way and be 'educated' about his 'errors'.

OP posts:
AtrociousCircumstance · 12/05/2024 02:27

This reply has been deleted

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ArabellaScott · 12/05/2024 06:50

the fact that people are.made uncomfortable and confused is part of the appeal, because anyone trying to 'queer gender' thinks this is challenging norms.

It's not really, it's just taxing people by fucking with language. But to a callow youth (or arch-twit Judith Butler) it sorr of likes like you are sticking it to the man. Or the gender neutral person of convention.

Justme56 · 12/05/2024 07:19

My friend, who is a stickler for time keeping hates when people are late. She told me that ‘it’s her time people are wasting not their own’. it sounds harsh but I can see where she is coming from when it comes to the mental gymnastics of having to arse around with pronouns.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/05/2024 07:33

If gender isn't binary, how can non binary be a gender identity?

If non binary people aren't binary, why are there still two types of non binary people (the male kind and the female kind)?

I just have no truck with any of it and am very glad I don't actually know anyone in real life who wants me to play along with this.

Username65 · 12/05/2024 07:36

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:27

Yes, indeed. I'm sure Graham's job won't be at risk, as he's far too big a name; but I bet he'll still have his collar felt in some way and be 'educated' about his 'errors'.

According to Graham, there’s no “cancel culture” anyway. Maybe he’ll be held “accountable” for his careless language? I agree with you, though - he won’t lose his lucrative career over this..

Graham Norton's Accountability Problem - A Gay Man's Response

Graham Norton says he believes in accountability, so here's me holding him to account over his cowardly comments. Will he take it like a man? A 25-min ride t...

https://youtu.be/IZCQLSp28tI?si=tpSp9NF8Drh0uxJL

afternoonoflife · 12/05/2024 07:37

I agree with you, although a small part of me wants someone to call Graham out for his bigotry, because he has been clear how pro trans rights he is and belittled anyone’s concerns. Also scorned JKR at one point iirc.

However, yes it’s just a power play. I see men identifying as non-binary as a way to not be a straight white man but still have everyone dancing to your tune. It’s also a way for “allies” to virtue signal and aggressively police others. I have seen even if the person themself doesn’t correct others if they use the wrong pronouns, someone else will point it out and shame other people.

FrancescaContini · 12/05/2024 07:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Yep

domineastronomy · 12/05/2024 07:42

Attention seeking bollux from people who are often in denial about their same sex attraction.

Helleofabore · 12/05/2024 07:42

Justme56 · 12/05/2024 07:19

My friend, who is a stickler for time keeping hates when people are late. She told me that ‘it’s her time people are wasting not their own’. it sounds harsh but I can see where she is coming from when it comes to the mental gymnastics of having to arse around with pronouns.

This is part of my take on this too.

If my communication with someone causes me to have to overthink what I am about to say or write, that effort needs to be considered worthwhile for me. And I am now past the age of doing something just to make someone ‘happy’.

In fact, it has been this issue that brought about that change. Because no other issue has meant so much extra effort has had to be invested in communication.

Sadly, I think that some of the people who are insisting on compelled speech do it exactly because they know it takes effort and that gives them the attention some of them demand, even if it is just the knowledge someone has to think about them right then and there. And of course, if then can give some of them the ability to claim injury when they have been ‘misgendered’.

Helleofabore · 12/05/2024 07:44

Username65 · 12/05/2024 07:36

According to Graham, there’s no “cancel culture” anyway. Maybe he’ll be held “accountable” for his careless language? I agree with you, though - he won’t lose his lucrative career over this..

I hope Menno does a follow up.

TerfsWereRight · 12/05/2024 07:53

It also requires you to take an interest in random people. I don't want to know and remember personal info about any of the singers - there are 26 acts that I’ll see once. I can see and remember that the Swiss singer is male from a brief glimpse. Knowing that I should be using they pronouns means I have to find out about that and remember something specific about him. That’s not the level I’m operating on with Eurovision singers or most people who just pass fleetingly through my life. It’s so narcissistic to expect other people to know and care about details about how you see yourself.

I have to admit I took a dislike to him when he went out for the flag parade with a massive non-binary flag on his front and the Swiss flag behind him, so you could hardly see what country he was. It’s not about you, you’re representing your country!

crumbpet · 12/05/2024 07:57

Thing is with Nemo was that it was clearly a song about being non-binary so that should have helped Graham. But yes it was noticeable how hard he had to try.

BonzoGates · 12/05/2024 07:58

He's been non binary since November 2023 apparently.

MrsJamin · 12/05/2024 08:04

I am in a large hobby group with a young "non binary" man who no one would perceive as gender non conforming. We talk a lot between ourselves referring to each other which is a perfect storm for "misgendering" him and he corrects people every time someone says it. It's really mentally taxing to remember not to say he or him and I feel like people avoid talking about him because they don't want to say the wrong thing or be brought up on it publicly. I tend to refer to him by name rather than say they or them, as it's not wrong and doesn't sound that jarring if it's a short phrase. It's easy to say "I would just say he" but if I insisted I am sure it would make it hard to stay in the group: this is my main hobby and I go weekly, it would leave a big hole in my life not to have it. But yeah the cognitive load of remembering is real, and he's not the one shouldering it.

ItsSerious · 12/05/2024 08:08

I found it very amusing that Graham Norton kept using different pronouns 😅 It's almost as if it's very clear what sex they are

FrancescaContini · 12/05/2024 08:14

BonzoGates · 12/05/2024 07:58

He's been non binary since November 2023 apparently.

But male since a few weeks in utero. He’ll always be male. Everyone sees that he’s male.

SnakesAndArrows · 12/05/2024 08:17

I just can’t get my head around “they”. I absolutely understand the use of sex-neutral terms to avoid sexist first impressions - it should not be necessary, but it still is.

However, anyone can easily see that Bambie is female (with a male partner, I believe) and Nemo is male. I like Bambie’s look, and I hoped, briefly, that Nemo was a bloke rocking a skirt, but no… just so much self absorption. Makes me sad.

Non-binary seems to me to be simply a rejection of sex-based clothing and behaviour stereotypes, whilst retaining the right to wear and do whatever the hell one damn well chooses. This is all good. It’s what I’ve been doing since, well, forever, but deliberately since 1984.

So what’s new? What’s special about these people? And why are we expected to pretend?

NefertitiV · 12/05/2024 08:32

MrsJamin · 12/05/2024 08:04

I am in a large hobby group with a young "non binary" man who no one would perceive as gender non conforming. We talk a lot between ourselves referring to each other which is a perfect storm for "misgendering" him and he corrects people every time someone says it. It's really mentally taxing to remember not to say he or him and I feel like people avoid talking about him because they don't want to say the wrong thing or be brought up on it publicly. I tend to refer to him by name rather than say they or them, as it's not wrong and doesn't sound that jarring if it's a short phrase. It's easy to say "I would just say he" but if I insisted I am sure it would make it hard to stay in the group: this is my main hobby and I go weekly, it would leave a big hole in my life not to have it. But yeah the cognitive load of remembering is real, and he's not the one shouldering it.

How often would you need to refer to the person with pronouns in those circumstances, though? I find that generally when discussing a person when they aren't present, you might use personal pronouns (eg. "She did this, he wants that"). Otherwise, you could use the individual's name ("Please pass Joe this, I wish Joe wouldn't do that). If you're speaking directly to them, you certainly wouldn't be using pronouns.

Thingybob · 12/05/2024 08:36

So what’s new? What’s special about these people? And why are we expected to pretend

Non binary people have been "to hell and back" before breaking "the code" to find their "kingdom come" where they are not another one or zero.

How can you or Graham Norton not see that?

WickedSerious · 12/05/2024 08:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 12/05/2024 07:33

If gender isn't binary, how can non binary be a gender identity?

If non binary people aren't binary, why are there still two types of non binary people (the male kind and the female kind)?

I just have no truck with any of it and am very glad I don't actually know anyone in real life who wants me to play along with this.

That's enough awkward questions for today thank you.

Runor · 12/05/2024 08:42

OP, I’m really interested in your reference to House of Games, and that feeling of being on high alert. Obviously humans are evolved to experience periods of high stress, but we are well aware that if those periods extend over longer time periods, it can have very bad outcomes for mental & physical health.

id love to see a piece of research measuring eg cortisol levels in work places where this is particularly heavily policed v not. We may well find that this behaviour is both a health & safety issue and a predictor of lower performance levels (and of course higher absence).