Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

185 replies

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:05

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:31

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 13:30

Ah right. I have no interest in Eurovision so I didn't know.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:36

Slightly off-topic, but I did chuckle at Graham's description of Nemo's big turntable thing as "A kind of lazy Susan; well, actually, a very overworked Susan - an exhausted Susan, if you will!"

All assuming that it didn't actually identify as a Simon or a (non-sex-specific) Sam instead...

OP posts:
Beamur · 12/05/2024 13:40

Just goes to show how hard wired our ability to correctly sex an individual goes.
Even people trying really hard to respect neutral or incongruous pronouns slip up.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:40

MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:22

I like "unsexed" I think that works.

Formally: "Theydyies and Gentlethem"
Or is that still too binary? 🤣

Yes, 'unsexed' would be a lot more logical (inasmuch as any of this can ever be). If you claim not to be male or female, you must be without sex.

And considering that, in English, we only ever use 'they' in the singular to refer to a person of as-yet-unknown sex and not a sexless subject, I wonder why there isn't more clamouring to be referred to as 'it' - purely from a grammatical pov?

OP posts:
SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:47

I don't get how changing your label or pronouns can so magically transform your life for the better in any way.

If you're a single mum called Julie, stuck in a grotty overpriced rental place in a crime-ridden area, on a zero-hours contract and struggling with various debilitating health problems... how on earth does telling everybody that you now want to be called Laura (or indeed Brian) instead suddenly make all of that bad stuff just simply go away?

OP posts:
Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 13:50

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:40

Yes, 'unsexed' would be a lot more logical (inasmuch as any of this can ever be). If you claim not to be male or female, you must be without sex.

And considering that, in English, we only ever use 'they' in the singular to refer to a person of as-yet-unknown sex and not a sexless subject, I wonder why there isn't more clamouring to be referred to as 'it' - purely from a grammatical pov?

Unfortunately 'it' has become associated in English with inanimate objects.

Doesn't happen in languages where inanimate objects have grammatical genders, of course.

Which just goes to show how Anglocentric gender ideology is. Cultural imperialism, much?

thirdfiddle · 12/05/2024 13:59

Is they called Nemo because they identifies as a clownfish? ETA, i was a bit worried this would be taken as pisstaking and get me strikes, but looking at the link above, it appears it is actually true.

The sad thing is there /is/ liberation in breaking the code. Breaking the code is saying sod this gender game, I can be a man and wear pink feathers if I damn well please. What Nemo has done is the ultimate in deferring to the code by agreeing that not following the code sufficiently means they is not a man at all.

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 14:06

"Nemo" is a Latin word meaning 'no-one', 'nobody'.

Make of that what you will.

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 14:07

And I didn't see feathers, I saw the skin of a slaughtered and flayed Bagpuss.

ArabellaScott · 12/05/2024 14:12

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 14:06

"Nemo" is a Latin word meaning 'no-one', 'nobody'.

Make of that what you will.

finding dory GIF

.

SnakesAndArrows · 12/05/2024 14:13

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 12/05/2024 13:14

I saw two good old fashioned goths yesterday (female). I was really heartened!

Oooh, so did I, in Leeds. I was mooching around my old stomping ground thinking it had changed too much and then they appeared. They looked like a mum and daughter - cheered me right up.

SidewaysOtter · 12/05/2024 14:13

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:47

I don't get how changing your label or pronouns can so magically transform your life for the better in any way.

If you're a single mum called Julie, stuck in a grotty overpriced rental place in a crime-ridden area, on a zero-hours contract and struggling with various debilitating health problems... how on earth does telling everybody that you now want to be called Laura (or indeed Brian) instead suddenly make all of that bad stuff just simply go away?

It doesn’t. It just goes to show that this is all luxury belief peddled by those who haven’t got anything else to worry about so they invent their own oppression.

I should imagine people who are starving, abused, in a war zone, living in abject poverty etc have got other things to think about than “Am I gender non-conforming?” Hence why pronoun bollocks is the preserve of people who are not oppressed at all.

ArabellaScott · 12/05/2024 14:19

It's a target error logic fail, isn't it.

Men and women have stereotyped standards and expectations imposed upon them. Stereotypes can be limiting and restrictive.

The logical thing to do would be to resist the stereotypes, but 'non-binaries' try to resist the 'man' and 'woman', instead.

They is just a bit confused, really.

Woman2023 · 12/05/2024 14:24

"I was trying to summarise Nemo's difficult journey to self discovery.

Longer version here

wiwibloggs.com/2024/05/01/the-code-lyrics-nemo-switzerland-eurovision-2024/281373/"

I am impressed by your summarising skills, excellent work!
Less bothered by a man realising he's not a man or a woman, ridiculous.

ArabellaScott · 12/05/2024 15:17

'I reject stereotypes that are applied to me on the basis of my biological sex' has become 'I reject my biological sex'.

HootyMcBooby · 12/05/2024 15:23

And yet, it took a nano second to see that Nemo is a bloke, and wItchy "non-binary" Irish person is a female.

The evidence of our eyes tells the truth, words mean nothing anymore.
Even someone like Grahame Norton who is presumably steeped in this shite (given things he has said in the press in the past) cannot keep the lie going when he is caught off-guard.

Chersfrozenface · 12/05/2024 15:42

Even someone like Grahame Norton who is presumably steeped in this shite (given things he has said in the press in the past) cannot keep the lie going when he is caught off-guard.

I would argue that he wasn't off-guard. He's an experienced presenter in a commentary box, he's done Eurovision for 15 years, he's bound to have prepared thoroughly beforehand, there was plenty of coverage of Nemo's "non binary" identity.

If even he couldn't keep up the pronoun palaver with all his preparation, who on earth could do so in ordinary life, in non-scripted conversations, amid multiple distractions?

ArabellaScott · 12/05/2024 15:50

I heard Bambi Thug describe herself in an interview as a 'queer person with a vagina'.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/05/2024 16:12

OhPea · 12/05/2024 13:08

Whenever I see “xxxxx uses they/them pronouns” I feel it should be changed to “xxxxx demands others refer to them with they/them pronouns”. It’s more accurate. (Obviously I would prefer we ignored it completely).

Yep, it isn’t how speech works, is it. English doesn’t have a gendered form of the first person singular , so they can’t stress their gender or lack of it when referring to themselves.

’We’ isn’t gendered either, and that’s reserved for the Monarch, anyway.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/05/2024 16:13

If I ruled the world, tiresome attention-seekers would all be exiled to a remote island with no access to social media and no capacity to take selfies. Something about this thread made me think of this.

taracetamol · 12/05/2024 16:14

Nemo seemed like quite a sweel soul. Bambi is what happens when the terminally online are given a stage.

A shame, because a witchy, goth industrial tinged well choreographed performance is lots of things I'd enjoy, but...I found everything about it unbearable. I can't imagine living a life with the main purpose being to create a stir on twitter and be a copy and paste "rebel".

I'm being mean...

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/05/2024 16:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:42

AIBU thread on non binary identities has just been taken down for too many posts breaking talk guidelines.

Annoying. I'd got about halfway through and when I changed page it had gone. I hadn't seen that many deletions up to that point. Perhaps it got more heated later on.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/05/2024 16:20

I read that Bambi shouted ‘the Queers are coming’ when Nem’s victory was announced.

Was that in the future or present tense , do you think?