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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

185 replies

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:05

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

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powershowerforanhour · 12/05/2024 11:08

"He's been non binary since November 2023 apparently."

He kind of had to be, to be the "first" something or other to win. Dana International, who won it 26 years ago, is trans; and Conchita, who won it 10 years ago, is a gay drag queen. So what's a bloke in a dress to do, to avoid seeming old hat?

Brainworm · 12/05/2024 11:28

To the poster who is finding anxiety about 'misgendering' the 'non-binary' daughter, perhaps you could say that you are concerned that you might inadvertently misgender, and this isn't your intention as you know it's important to the mother and off spring that preferred pronouns are used. So, just as she is asking you to use the preferred pronouns, you are asking her to not draw attention if/when you don't use them.

That sounds like a fair exchange of requests. If she objects, perhaps a more detailed conversation can be had about the cognitive demand of this and how it impacts on the quality of interaction and, in turn, the relationship

Doyoumind · 12/05/2024 11:31

It wasn't just Graham. In a package on the BBC News that followed, the culture correspondent David Sillito only referred to Bambi Thug using she and her.

It's utter nonsense. And it's not about how people dress. There are many people, though it does seem to be more so for women - who dress in a way that's stereotypical for their sex.

There's no single definition of what it means to be non-binary, and that proves it's not a real thing.

DodoPatrol · 12/05/2024 11:36

I did ask DD once (as she was having a rant about non-binary pronouns) whether she'd ever heard anyone accidentally 'he' a female non-binary person or 'she' a male one. Nope. Everyone defaults to the pronoun of the person's sex if they slip up.

FrancescaContini · 12/05/2024 11:40

Rubidium · 12/05/2024 08:51

I wonder if Spain’s equivalent of Graham Norton referred to Nemo as being ’no binario’ and Bambi Thug as ‘no binaria’

🤣

OddBoots · 12/05/2024 11:42

Some people are always going to be better at the Stroop Test than others but it wouldn't be a test if it wasn't a mental challenge - adding greater cognitive dissidence to all our everyday lives doesn't feel like a progressive move but it seems others disagree.

Justme56 · 12/05/2024 11:42

I think what shocks me more than just the pronouns is that somewhere along the line somebody/somewhere has decided that there is such a thing as gender affirming surgery to create a so called non binary body.

HootyMcBooby · 12/05/2024 11:43

Yeah I noticed the misgendering too.

It's almost like the whole thing is complete and utter horse shit.

Almost.

MrsJamin · 12/05/2024 11:54

NefertitiV · 12/05/2024 08:32

How often would you need to refer to the person with pronouns in those circumstances, though? I find that generally when discussing a person when they aren't present, you might use personal pronouns (eg. "She did this, he wants that"). Otherwise, you could use the individual's name ("Please pass Joe this, I wish Joe wouldn't do that). If you're speaking directly to them, you certainly wouldn't be using pronouns.

I thought I explained quite clearly that I see him in a large group where we frequently talk about what each other is doing (eg putting on a amateur dramatic play: "OK so I go this way and Tom does his part? ..." ) so yes we do frequently refer to each other in the 3rd person with that person present. So don't tell me this is avoidable in this hobby, it isn't.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 12:19

There was an article about Nemo in the Metro before the final. It must have made tedious reference to his being 'non-binary' about six times, before, amusingly, finishing off with the below, which I screen-grabbed.

Just imagine being about to do something (that people of either sex can equally do) on a world stage that only a very tiny percentage of people have/will ever do - and then an article about you fixates far more on what sex you happen to be/think you aren't, rather than the actual performance that you're there for.

Why don't all articles about everybody take the effort to repeatedly stress in every paragraph that the person being talked about is a 'binary male' or 'binary female', rather than just assuming that it's obvious?

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality
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Aussiegold · 12/05/2024 12:34

Sorry, can't seem to do the link, but I see IW is unhappy about misgendering on Twitter, wonder if Graham Norton will apologise?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:42

AIBU thread on non binary identities has just been taken down for too many posts breaking talk guidelines.

FelineGood76 · 12/05/2024 12:50

IW was probably sitting on the edge of theys seat with a notepad and pen the whole time waiting on the inevitable shite they could complain about.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:52

Exactly. Pure attention seeking.

BonzoGates · 12/05/2024 12:55

powershowerforanhour · 12/05/2024 11:08

"He's been non binary since November 2023 apparently."

He kind of had to be, to be the "first" something or other to win. Dana International, who won it 26 years ago, is trans; and Conchita, who won it 10 years ago, is a gay drag queen. So what's a bloke in a dress to do, to avoid seeming old hat?

Conchita had a lovely red dress on during the interval act - many of the female performers looked like they were inspired by the film Metropolis

Truthlikeness · 12/05/2024 12:55

Justme56 · 12/05/2024 11:42

I think what shocks me more than just the pronouns is that somewhere along the line somebody/somewhere has decided that there is such a thing as gender affirming surgery to create a so called non binary body.

And it often seems to tend towards the male - removal of breasts and testosterone to lower voice, increase body hair etc...

BonzoGates · 12/05/2024 12:56

FrancescaContini · 12/05/2024 08:14

But male since a few weeks in utero. He’ll always be male. Everyone sees that he’s male.

Absolutely. I live in Scotland so blokes in kilts are still blokes.

OhPea · 12/05/2024 13:08

Whenever I see “xxxxx uses they/them pronouns” I feel it should be changed to “xxxxx demands others refer to them with they/them pronouns”. It’s more accurate. (Obviously I would prefer we ignored it completely).

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/05/2024 12:42

AIBU thread on non binary identities has just been taken down for too many posts breaking talk guidelines.

Hmm, interesting - I didn't catch that one in time.

Personally speaking, my purpose is not to deny people the right to label themselves however they like and believe whatever they want about themselves - but it's the insistence that everybody else go along with it as though it's established fact, against all logic and natural instincts.

You can genuinely believe that you're the King or Queen (or indeed a NB-equivalent - maybe 'Quing'?), but that doesn't make other people bad, bigoted or hateful if they refuse (or even just forget sometimes) to address you as 'Your Majesty' every single time they speak to or about you.

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TheCoolOliveBalonz · 12/05/2024 13:14

I saw two good old fashioned goths yesterday (female). I was really heartened!

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:18

FelineGood76 · 12/05/2024 12:50

IW was probably sitting on the edge of theys seat with a notepad and pen the whole time waiting on the inevitable shite they could complain about.

I think that's the crux of it. There probably are people who identify as NB who prefer to be referred to as 'they', but who totally understand that not everybody will be on board with that and will just use standard sex-based pronouns instead.

However, it's the feeling that so many of them are just wanting to make you feel nervous and awkward all the time and desperately waiting to berate, smear and humiliate you for forgetting to pointedly ignore instructions that happen not to begin with 'Simon says'.

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MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:18

Thingybob · 12/05/2024 08:36

So what’s new? What’s special about these people? And why are we expected to pretend

Non binary people have been "to hell and back" before breaking "the code" to find their "kingdom come" where they are not another one or zero.

How can you or Graham Norton not see that?

That's some impressive word salad even for this forum 🤣

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 13:22

OhPea · 12/05/2024 13:08

Whenever I see “xxxxx uses they/them pronouns” I feel it should be changed to “xxxxx demands others refer to them with they/them pronouns”. It’s more accurate. (Obviously I would prefer we ignored it completely).

Yes, absolutely. How else are you supposed to respond to that?

If somebody introduces you to a new person - "This is Phil and he's a keen sky-diver" - is that just giving you a bit of personal info about Phil, or is it an order that you too are now expected to strap on your parachute and get on the plane, to avoid upsetting Phil if he realises that not everybody is exactly like him?

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MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/05/2024 13:22

MagpiePi · 12/05/2024 10:20

I like this response:

I like "unsexed" I think that works.

Formally: "Theydyies and Gentlethem"
Or is that still too binary? 🤣

SidewaysOtter · 12/05/2024 13:24

I knew there'd be a load of this as soon as the Ireland entry whipped off her dress to reveal a trans flag. And then Switzerland started draping a non-binary flag around, although that may have been more to do with his skirt being VERY short and his crotch being on full view.

As for pronouns/they-themming, it’s a combination of needing to elevate themselves to Special Person status combined with the need to take up other people’s mental space. Even worse when they have split pronouns (“My pronouns are he/they!”) and you have to work out which way round they go.

Fuck off with that shite. You’re not special and no-one cares how you’d like to be referred to.