'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

[SwedishKvinnaboske]

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

It's almost like it's not worth bothering,

Thingybob, I think your sarcasm showing 😁

I wonder if Spain’s equivalent of Graham Norton referred to Nemo as being ’no binario’ and Bambi Thug as ‘no binaria’

My friend is non binary and queer. It’s difficult to remember because they are a straight female, married to a man, wearing a dress and makeup and feminine jewellery, with a stereotypical female name, job and hobbies. I’m not sure what exactly is non binary and queer about them but I’m obviously missing something.

Meanwhile I’m sitting there with my unisex name, short hair and androgynous clothing (much of which I actually buy from the men’s department), with my degree in computer programming and dirt under my nails from pottering around the allotment. But I expect people to call me “she”.

I try to use my friend’s name instead of pronouns because it’s confusing. People often forget and say the wrong thing. I don’t think anyone struggles to remember to call me “she” though.

I was at a wedding recently and prior to sitting down for my meal my friend came over to me and quietly said btw just so you know, there is going to be a "they" at our table. My other friend heard the conversation and was very bemused, which made me happy as she's a lesbian and I hadn't spoken to her about any of this and wasn't sure what side of the fence she was on regarding gender woo. My other friend I'd already spoken to a month before, so her and I were already openly in agreement. My lesbian friend said oh yes it's all nonsense, I don't understand it at all. Her wife's sister had apparently been telling them about it all, and specifically enlightened them about the "cotton ceiling" and they were both horrified. I was so happy to be having this IRL (albeit brief) conversation as I hadn't wanted to bring it up. So thanks to the "they" we had a very quick impromptu GC chat! 😃

Anyway, we sat down at the table, I'm mentally trying to make sure I'd not make a mistake (bearing in mind we are all quite merry at this point). So in comes the "they"; a very clearly female person. With a short hair cut and a suit. It was a nice suit, like Diane Keeten used to wear to the Oscars. So that's it then. Cutting your hair short and wearing a suit makes you a "they". I therefore was a "they" from the age of 17 to about 21 then! The only thing that kind of annoyed me (from a fashion point of view) was that the suit didn't really match "they's" husband's suit, he was wearing a very different style. That's just me though, but I suppose that would have made them look like twins. Actually I'm remembering now they didn't call they's husband a husband they said "marriage partner" and "birthing partner" when the conversation moved to children.

More cognitive dissonance for all us other drunk people at the table to try and remember not to slip up! From what I understood they were actually married (not civil partnership or partners generally) and "they" had changed from female to "they" after the wedding (my friend had more intel than me about it). I mean, fair dos but if all it really involves is cutting your hair short and not wearing clothes that represent feminity why not just be gender non conforming and that's it? I was exactly like that in my late teens but I was still a female person.

I was out last night and only got home in time for the voting. I loved how Graham only managed a token they for Nemo after using he most of the times a mention was needed. As for Nemo himself, obviously male and I thought he looked really good in his outfit. No problem. No need to compel people to call you they which is so grammatically incorrect it makes my teeth itch. If only Nemo could have come out dressed exactly as he was as a proud he/him - that would've been far more progressive than pretending a man in stereotypically female clothes is somehow a mythical entity of neither male nor female and must be addressed in the plural.

This whole bollocks about not identifying as either gender is utterly depressing. Nobody identifies as a gender, we all are either male or female. There's no special feels attached to it, it's just what we innately are. To badly paraphrase JKR, wear what you want, sleep with who you want and don't be a dickhead.

It's the expectation that everyone else's life is so uninteresting that they can give over effort for someone who has a desperate need to feel unique and special. I just don't care enough. I've got my own life, my own things to think about. I'm just not going to pander to the self obsessed navel gazing of an overgrown teenager. I hear 'ooh, I'm non binary!' and I just think 'Christ, you're tedious'.

Can you imagine being the officiator at that wedding.

I now pronounce you "they, and marriage partner, they must now kiss themselves"

In my day to day life, the trans people who are evidently trans, get 'misgendered' all the time. This won't ever change.

CBT is helpful for supporting them to overcome automatically attributing harmful intent underpinning the misgendering.

Brock Colyar's essay is worth reading.

"These days, it feels as if an identity that, not long ago, felt unique to me in most rooms I entered has gone mass. Yes, part of what I’m personally upset about is the fact that this thing I loved isn’t so alt anymore. But more than that, it feels as if pronoun culture has contributed to nonbinary becoming just the third gender after male and female, more static and concrete than its original fluid intentions. The same nonbinary person who complained about nonbinary stereotypes lamented to me, “I don’t want to be a homogeneous normcore mashing of the two genders.” Ben hoped, “If man or woman can mean so many things, then so can nonbinary.” We all became nonbinary to escape gendered expectations, and now we’re stuck again. I can’t help but think that the walking-on-eggshells battle for pronouns is turning my gender into a human-resources-approved corporate product, more neutered than neutral, and, maybe above all else, profoundly unromantic. Next time, just call me by my name."

https://archive.ph/ECbBt

Tempted sometimes to ask someone who says they about someone else repeatedly to ask "why are you misgendering him/her?".

Perfectly apparent that even in the context of Eurovision, the Irish and the Swiss entries were the most desperately attention-seeking acts of all. I just want to say to them: you’re just another person! Literally, another human being who breathes and eats and shits like the rest of us. And you are one or other sex like the rest of us, no matter what complex mental gymnastics you engage in to make yourself feel special in some way. In thousands of years time, when archaeologists find your skeletal remains, you’re a man or a woman. That’s it.

God, I miss the days when Eddie Izzard was ‘a bloke in a dress’.

I mean, fair dos but if all it really involves is cutting your hair short and not wearing clothes that represent feminity why not just be gender non conforming and that's it? I was exactly like that in my late teens but I was still a female person.

It is ridiculous, but then there's also the issue that particularly vulnerable young women take it as step further and get mastectomies or even micro dose testosterone.

Twitter is awash with a random straight woman on Eurovision (I didn't watch) who claims to be trans/ queer/ non binary who basically just appears to dress up rather goth with some pale pink and blue added in.

https://twitter.com/HomoLittlest/status/1789445828962111664

Yet somehow the non-binaries are completely identifiable as male and female whatever their presentation.

I think the problem is that western culture has invented and taken on every single fashion trend possible and they've run out of options.

So they're recycling everything and adding "queer" messing with pronouns with a dash of shit colour.

Bambi Thug's whole performance ( for Ireland) was an example utter juvenility. "Look how anti the repressive catholic establishement we are, with our song about devils and witches" Even the name 'Bambi Thug'. Honestly, grow up!

I haven't seen her performance but a clip was just that non musical roaring that claims to be a type of thrash metal.

I like this response:

I expect he’ll issue a grovelling apology. Cowardly little weasel that he is.

That was done decades ago. The problem today is that they think they’re the first.

Meanwhile, I was impressed that a local comp did a women in maths day all about Ava lovelace and coding.

She broke the code, no eyeliner and flags required.

@Runor
OP, I’m really interested in your reference to House of Games, and that feeling of being on high alert. Obviously humans are evolved to experience periods of high stress, but we are well aware that if those periods extend over longer time periods, it can have very bad outcomes for mental & physical health.

I've been thinking about this for a while. What would I do if someone requested the use of pronouns, that are contrary to their appearance, and policed the use?

I've been suffering from anxiety disorder since my teenage years, and was only diagnosed properly and given a helpful therapy in my late 40s. My anxiety is all about being judged by others. I can say that this has made my life difficult day to day and in the big picture, and I let opportunitues pass me by that others wouldn't think twice about (e.g. not married, no kids). I've been living with permanently elevated stress levels for decades.

My decision is that I would remove these people from my life. Either by stopping going to a meeting, disinviting them if I was the one organizing it, or removing myself (up to looking for a new job).

I am not allowing people to live in my head rent-free anymore. In fact, come to think of it, I might use this exact phrase to explain it to them.

It will be interesting to see whether there’s any mention of this in the Eurovision coverage, or whether Graham has to apologise.

The non binary movement really pisses me off unfortunately. Thinks it’s breaking boundaries and can’t see that it’s actually putting them in place. It’s regressive, backwards. Inventing a new box for themselves to keep men and women in their own boxes. We should be rejecting the notion of gender and the expectations that come with it, not worshipping it.

I have a friend / acquaintance who has a daughter who has become a ‘they.’ The mother is very on it with correct pronoun use.
Whenever I am in the mothers company I constantly feel on edge in case I ‘misgender’ the ‘they/them’ child and get judged as some sort of ‘right wing bigot’. It doesn’t make for a relaxing time spent with this friend/acquaintance. I don’t care what people refer to themselves as but it’s unfair to expect people to ignore their own eyes and adapt their language accordingly.