'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

[SwedishKvinnaboske]

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

Gosh, that was a very long post to say what we all know to be true, that non-binary people are basically expecting other people to lie on their behalf. No-one using ‘they’ actually sees the person as a ‘they’. We all see and experience them as male or female.

😷censored

Perhaps it got more heated later on.

It didn't but one poster didn't like people generally calling people who identified as non-binary deluded attention seekers (I'm paraphrasing) so got report button happy. No one directly attacked anyone else.

I foolishly fell into the TAAT trap so will word this carefully.

IN GENERAL I think threads on gender topics are being moderated differently when they're out in the wide world of mumsnet and are taken down more readily.

It's a shame imo because it ghettoises the conversation. Which is likely the point.

I actually have a vague memory of this coming up in the past when there was a bit of interest "out there".

I think you're right. Irksome!

It is so hard to remember. It is a form of mental gymnastics. I feel awful because I made a slip of the tongue recently with a friend who is biologically female but goes by he/him. If they want to go by he/ him, it is fine by me but it slipped out in front of them, though I'm not even sure they noticed. It is harder to keep up than you think as the reality of their sex is just clear as day in front of you despite the trappings of maleness - facial hair, deepened voice etc. I've noticed in other situations with other people even nearest and dearest can slip up. It just does not come naturally.

The critical thinking is not strong with the Pronoun Brigade.

With NBs it all just feels so massively regressive.

Wear what you want, be that clothes, or makeup or not, long or short hair, work in the roughest job imaginable, a caring role, scientist or beautician, watch football, drink pints, love romcoms and flower arranging. Be who you want to be. Make everything open to everyone. No restrictions.

But I cannot see how effectively leaning into the stereotypes by saying that you reject what society expects of a man/woman and so that obviously must mean you aren't one helps either you or anyone else.

It reinforces stereotypes for everyone when we should actually have discarded them and sets you up for a life of misgendering/correctly sexing. It all honestly feels like steps back from where we were heading 20 ... 30 years back.

I hate that the word queer is starting to replace the acronym LGBQT+.

I am old enough to remember when queer was an insult directed at gay men, and some teenage girl with blue hair supposedly reclaiming it in the name of diversity and freedom of expression just comes across as ignorant and insensitive appropriation.

I get the idea of taking back a word, like the N word being used by black people, or us gender critical types embracing “TERF”.

But the people using “queer” now are not the people it was originally used against, and it feels wrong. Appropriating, even.

I still flinch when I hear people use the word because it was (and in some ways still is) such a loaded insult/derogatory term. During Eurovision semifinal I heard the BBC commentators call the Denmark entry 'the first black queer woman' to compete for Denmark and my instinctive thought was what’s wrong with the word lesbian (or Bi).

Exactly. As NB are still either male or female, they are declaring that all who are not NB are binary because they are comfortable with sexist stereotypes about femininity and masculinity and also with retrogressive gender roles for women and men.
This erases the last decades of feminism. It also suggests that all 'women' are happy to be viewed as pink-loving clothes-horses who wouldn't dream of having short hair or wearing jeans.
This ideology is thoroughly sexist and patriarchal (as the stereotypes about masculinity imply dominance, the stereotypes about femininity submissiveness), and that it is pushed by the left is something I just cannot intellectually understand at all.
The only understanding comes from accepting that none of this has to do about rational thinking.

The thing is, I genuinely enjoyed Nemo's performance. I whole hearted cheered at the sentiment and the spectacle.

I love to see people challenging and disrupting gender stereotypes, including playful happy things like well made up men in shiny skirts and pom pom trainers, or indeed big beardy men in corsets and heels (thank you Spain, loved those guys!). And that's not in spite of being GC, it's because I'm GC.

But then I remember that these people really do believe in order to say "these stereotypes do not define me" they actually have to be not-a-man and/or not-a-woman. They aren't challenging the stereotypes for what a man or a woman can be for everyone, they are just making the self-centered statement that they are not the same as the other boys/girls. They are in their arrogance not realising that the binary they see in other people is nothing more than a projection of their own prejudices, their own limited thinking and understanding about others.

If Nemo truly wanted to break the code, he'd say "I'm a man who loves some of the things that woman are supposed to love and hates some of the things men are supposed to love, and I'm still 100% a man and I look fabulous so deal with it!"

Ironically, when I realised Norton was consistently calling Nemo "he" and "him" I thought Nemo must identify as a man (I assuming Norton of all people would be very very careful about the pronouns in public!). And my god, for a moment that was truly fabulous - I thought the trans-addled commercial LBGT world still had room in it for a man who embraced all the tropes of non-binary without denying his sex.

So very disappointed to find out Nemo is just another everyday sexist NB.

(And his post-win repeat performance was a real let down - without the big show diva staging he came across as small, smug and whingy).

I have to admit I did not pick up that the song was about being non-binary. I just wondered why he’d chosen to wear such an ugly skirt and then afterwards why no one had shown him how to sit properly in a skirt (ie not legs akimbo).

@FlirtsWithRhinos

But then I remember that these people really do believe in order to say "these stereotypes do not define me" they actually have to be not-a-man and/or not-a-woman. They aren't challenging the stereotypes for what a man or a woman can be for everyone, they are just making the self-centered statement that they are not the same as the other boys/girls. They are in their arrogance not realising that the binary they see in other people is nothing more than a projection of their own prejudices, their own limited thinking and understanding about others.

So much this. Nemo is saying that anyone not 'identifying' out of being a woman is comfortable with sexist stereotypes about femininity and likes retrogressive 1950s sex roles for women. Only the handful of enlightened people break out of those.

This is supposed to be an advance over feminism?

Yes, I'd agree with this. In all TV programmes - but especially something like Eurovision - they must be briefed to within an inch of their lives.

They must have so many post-its, or the modern equivalent, flash up in their commentary booths at the right time - whether it screams 'NON-BINARY' in big letters, previous scoring/entering/qualifying/other statistics for each country or phonetic spellings and translations of foreign names and words that might prove tricky for a native English speaker.

Worst Santa Claus ever.

I love to see people challenging and disrupting gender stereotypes, including playful happy things like well made up men in shiny skirts and pom pom trainers, or indeed big beardy men in corsets and heels (thank you Spain, loved those guys!). And that's not in spite of being GC, it's becauseI'm GC.

Yes, Croatia's entry last year featured five very obvious burly males and four of them came on the stage wearing dresses.

No claims of being trans/NB or any other explanation to 'justify' their choice. It was basically "This is our song, our act and how we've chosen to stage it - if you like it, vote for it; if you don't, don't" - which is surely how it should most obviously be every single time.

Non Binary declarations are pure self indulgence. As if you alone are this unique, fully individualised creature - who dances only to their own tune, whilst everyone else who can't be arsed with that particular pretension, is somehow rigidly conformist.

Why do these people's friends and acquaintances tolerate such nonsense?

It is straight men who are coming probably in reality.

It seems Bambie wrote an entire song about how much she likes fellating male genitalia.
Bambie Thug - KAWASAKI (I Love It)

Well the patriarchy is in deep panic after that.

It is no wonder people get confused. Despite massive reference to being queer in interviews Bambie's Eurovision song was all about breaking with a toxic ex boyfriend. She doesn't seem to be bi at all as far as anyone can see.

It seems Bambi had a terrible male ex, combined with a recent instance of sexual assault [not sure if this was the same guy] and this led to attempt to reject her female side by going nonbinary/queer, while feeling conflicted about her continuing love for men i.e a pretty standard pattern for many women. Men can be awful and amazing, but you shouldn't change yourself, blame yourself, because of their issues. Demand they change.

If Bambie was a teenager Bambie would be annoying in an old-fashioned familiar way, but Bambie is 31 and must, surely, know just what a very dated, hackneyed, cliche their presentation style is.

Who is the governing body of Eurovision? Do they, every year, have to come up with some over-arching theme they want to push? This year is was LGBTQ+ year....with compulsory anti Israel rhetoric thrown in?

The judging panels and the public vote couldn't have been further apart.

Yes, I'm amazed that this is allowed to completely fly under the radar and is tolerated.

Like with those people who identify as trans but still demand the right to use wrong-sex toilets, changing rooms and other facilities - and all we hear is 'be kind' to them, even as they deliberately seek to take away other people's rights in order to add them on to their own.

Somebody informing you that they are non-binary is clearly stating that they see you as a boring, generic, one-dimensional walking stereotype, whilst THEY are special and an interesting, thinking person.

Neither of these is a neutral act - they are both deliberate ways to elevate themselves whilst belittling you and everybody else.

Others may have been well ahead of me here, but I have just learned that Bambie's 'everyday' name is Cuntry Ray Robinson - presumably not her birth name.

What a very 'interesting' choice for somebody who is so insistently 'non-binary' to choose such a name that is deliberately based on an offensive term for genitalia that is very much only present in one of the two sexes - and the one that she happens to be, as it goes.

It was LGBTQIA++ last year too, there were multiple drag queens on stage as interval acts?

I’ve throughly enjoyed the strangeness and camp of Eurovision for decades but get exasperated with the official marketing and DEI-style promotion of recent years being aimed at gay men as if the EBU organisers think Eurovision 'belongs' to that audience segment somehow.

I agree about the juries and the public vote: I was very surprised to see the huge public votes for Israel, France and Croatia. Just a pity the professional juries all fell into lockstep with their voting and therefore decided the winning song over the public vote.