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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'They': being expected to remember the requirement to deny reality

185 replies

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 02:05

I just hugely enjoyed, for all of its faults, another glorious Eurovision final - it's the highlight of the TV year for my family.

However, I couldn't help noticing in the TV commentary that Graham Norton - himself obviously no stranger to the 'LGBT community' - automatically used sex-based pronouns for the two 'non-binary-identifying' finalists who both make it known that they prefer to use 'they' - in English, at least (I presume that Nemo must have seen the obvious drawback in German, where the same word 'sie' is used for 'she' and for 'they', with the context sometimes only being clear from the correct use of the singular or plural form of the verb).

Once, Graham referred to Bambie Thug as 'she' (but other times used 'they'); and I counted at least three times when he referred to Nemo as 'he', in the midst of all the other uses of 'they'. This included Graham's loud exclamation at the end that "HE'S DONE IT!", which you would normally expect the BBC news afterwards to automatically replay as the defining moment when reporting on the victory. Oddly enough, this moment was notable in its absence, which seemed rather strange.

Unless I'm very much misinformed, all of the other 23 singers in the final use sex-based pronouns, in accordance with biology, and Graham never once failed to use these correct pronouns for the other 92% of performers - even if the potential effects of alcohol consumption are taken into account. Interestingly, he also never accidentally called Bambie 'he' or Nemo 'she'.

My main point in highlighting this is that being expected to refer to a single known individual as 'they' is most obviously not something that comes naturally to most of us, and thus, even if we do willingly (or feel forced to) comply, it presents a real barrier to our normal use of language, as we have to remember to stop and think every time what needs to be changed when dealing with particular people. I'm sure not one of us has ever had to stop and remember to refer to our mum as 'she' or our brother as 'he'.

It feels to me like a round on Richard Osman's House of Games - where the object is to think hard whilst playing and not to forget that every correct number in an answer first has to be doubled or every 'E' has to be changed to an 'O' or whatever. The whole idea of these games is that they're deliberately designed to catch you out if you aren't on high alert at all times. Fun for a half-hour light-hearted brain-teaser, but extremely tiresome to have to follow 24/7 in real life.

If humans being 'non-binary' - and thus 'they' - is indeed, as we are told, a perfectly natural state of affairs, why do our brains have to be temporarily re-wired and constantly on edge every single time we have to address or talk about somebody who demands to be referred to as 'they'? Why must we walk on eggshells and deliberately deny the common-sense reality in language that our brains automatically go to?

How come one person can dictate to countless others that they are not allowed to fully use the natural fluency that they have long had in their own (mutual) native language in order to validate somebody else's (minority) personal beliefs - and in so doing confirm that they must necessarily share these beliefs and are therefore not allowed to hold different ones themselves? It's widely viewed as bigotry/nastiness/phobia not to call a self-proclaimed 'NB' person 'they' - but however much you try to deny it, it simply is not ever instinctive or natural to the vast majority (if not all) of us.

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/05/2024 20:12

Internet thinks birth certificate name is Bambie Ray Robinson. Born 1993, which makes Thug about halfway in age between my two children. Hmmm.

DeanElderberry · 12/05/2024 20:16

aka old enough to have more sense

the screaming and posing would not have been encouraged in Macroom, I can tell you that - but the old-fashioned Abby Sciutto look without Abby's scientific competence would have been familiar.

Violetparis · 12/05/2024 20:27

Stella Creasey MP got scolded on twitter for calling Bambi Thug a she 😂.

MrGHardy · 12/05/2024 21:08

Yes, it is so hilarious how some languages have to use pronouns from other languages, because their own don't actually have this nonsense. Just one more (funny) proof that it's all performative.

NameChange0101010101 · 12/05/2024 21:24

taracetamol · 12/05/2024 10:06

Tempted sometimes to ask someone who says they about someone else repeatedly to ask "why are you misgendering him/her?".

I encountered this recently- very right-on bloke talking with me and a couple about the couple's female teenager, who has never identified as anything else.

He was at pains to keep referring to her as 'they', presumably to show that he wasn't making any assumptions.

I now wish I'd called him on his blatant misgendering.

AColdClearDrink · 12/05/2024 21:43

I think the silence on Graham Norton's misgendering is interesting. I'm sure others wouldn’t have got away with it (especially if they were female).

TheMarzipanDildo · 12/05/2024 21:44

I know it seems unbelievable but I genuinely reckon possible that Graham isn’t fully aware of what’s going on/ the new rules. Someone said he must be steeped in this shit but I don’t get that impression from his comments.

AColdClearDrink · 12/05/2024 21:50

Yet didn’t he have a go at J K Rowling?

Brewdug · 12/05/2024 22:55

I have to admit I took a dislike to him when he went out for the flag parade with a massive non-binary flag on his front and the Swiss flag behind him, so you could hardly see what country he was. It’s not about you, you’re representing your country!

Oh, the cringe of that. Clearly just out of the packet, visibly creased to buggery. It looked absolutely awful. He should have been penalised for that as a crime against accessorising in the first place.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 12/05/2024 23:21

I believe that the performers had been told not to fly the NB flag (not sure of details but I doubt it was a specific NB flag ban, more a general political/activist flag ban) so his doing so was by way of a protest. That also explains why he was waving it around so prominantly during the voting, also the odd small rainbow/trans flags popping up from other performers.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 23:30

NameChange0101010101 · 12/05/2024 21:24

I encountered this recently- very right-on bloke talking with me and a couple about the couple's female teenager, who has never identified as anything else.

He was at pains to keep referring to her as 'they', presumably to show that he wasn't making any assumptions.

I now wish I'd called him on his blatant misgendering.

If he wasn't going on what was obvious before his very eyes, how arrogant of him to assume that she identified as a human - and treat her as such.

If he hadn't been so bigoted in his narrow-minded anthroponormative assumptions, he may well have discovered that she identified as an ocelot, or an oak tree, or the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

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UtopiaPlanitia · 12/05/2024 23:36

FlirtsWithRhinos · 12/05/2024 23:21

I believe that the performers had been told not to fly the NB flag (not sure of details but I doubt it was a specific NB flag ban, more a general political/activist flag ban) so his doing so was by way of a protest. That also explains why he was waving it around so prominantly during the voting, also the odd small rainbow/trans flags popping up from other performers.

Comedy Dating GIF by CBC

On the final night the Ireland, Switzerland and Latvia entourages held progress pride flags and NB flags. In the first semifinal the Ireland entry held a trans flag in front of her every time the cameras went to the green room (plus her trans flag bikini) and the Denmark entourage had a drag queen with a trans flag hand-fan.

Even if the various countries’ entourages were told not to display political flags or slogans it’s not exactly a very politically brave/daring thing to do to fly a gender identity flag at Eurovision 😬

SwedishKvinnaboske · 12/05/2024 23:38

FlirtsWithRhinos · 12/05/2024 23:21

I believe that the performers had been told not to fly the NB flag (not sure of details but I doubt it was a specific NB flag ban, more a general political/activist flag ban) so his doing so was by way of a protest. That also explains why he was waving it around so prominantly during the voting, also the odd small rainbow/trans flags popping up from other performers.

It was interesting how the French singer - who unquestionably does have Palestinian heritage - was banned from displaying the Palestinian flag or any of his own cultural symbols, whilst those who have recently started to feel like something else that happens to have its own flag were just fine to do so.

We actually reached the place where Slimane was told off - and told that he could face sanctions - for calling for peace in the middle of his act. Nothing political and nobody named or blamed; just for wanting a world of peace!!! Didn't Nicole win the contest back in 1982 for expressing the same apparently controversial and outrageous view?!

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EsmaCannonball · 13/05/2024 00:25

It wasn't just Graham Norton. Every single live reporter I have seen at Eurovision over the last few days kept on having to correct themselves after instinctively referring to the Irish and Swiss entrants as 'she' and 'he'.

Although I quite liked the Swiss entry and thought he gave a great performance, I did find the message of the song completely tedious. Oh, you've broken the code, have you? Do you not think that over the last several millennia a few other people might have got up one day and thought, 'You know, these gendered sex roles are a bit limiting. I might try breaking a few of the rules.'? Do you not think a few feminists might already have broken that code you've only just cracked?

However, he's not as bad as the Irish contestant, who just seems to be an immense cry-bully.

SwedishKvinnaboske · 13/05/2024 03:15

It wasn't just Graham Norton. Every single live reporter I have seen at Eurovision over the last few days kept on having to correct themselves after instinctively referring to the Irish and Swiss entrants as 'she' and 'he'.

Hmm, interesting. Did you notice them realising that they'd said something 'verboten' and instantly backtracking, though? Graham called Nemo 'he' at least three times that I heard and never changed it or apologised for those instances - although he did later revert to 'they' when he remembered.

Likewise, David Sillitoe, on the news immediately afterwards, referred to Bambie as 'her' at least twice and never 'corrected' himself. In fact, I don't actually recall him once calling her 'they' in his (admittedly short) piece about her.

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TheMarzipanDildo · 13/05/2024 07:04

AColdClearDrink · 12/05/2024 21:50

Yet didn’t he have a go at J K Rowling?

Yeah but in that way people do when they don’t know what she said. Vaguely.

RebelliousCow · 13/05/2024 08:03

UtopiaPlanitia · 12/05/2024 17:46

I still flinch when I hear people use the word because it was (and in some ways still is) such a loaded insult/derogatory term. During Eurovision semifinal I heard the BBC commentators call the Denmark entry 'the first black queer woman' to compete for Denmark and my instinctive thought was what’s wrong with the word lesbian (or Bi).

'Queer' replaces terms and words which make implicit references to sex or to sex based attraction. 'Queer' muddies the definitions - makes everything more 'fluid', which is one of the main purpose of Queer Theory.

RebelliousCow · 13/05/2024 08:05

Greta Thunberg has become a new version of Owen Jones. Someone who at one point displayed youthful energy and brilliance, but who has now descended into an unthinking parody of herself. Which is what happens when you become too attached to a particular role or version of yourself and want to keep it going.

RebelliousCow · 13/05/2024 08:08

TheMarzipanDildo · 13/05/2024 07:04

Yeah but in that way people do when they don’t know what she said. Vaguely.

Can't stand Graham Norton these days. I'm well over that camp bitchiness and meanness of spirit - posing as humour. I don't think I've ever gotten over his horrible comments about Amy Winehouse - when she was at her lowest point.

PurpleBugz · 13/05/2024 08:12

Yup and it's not just pronouns. we know a NB child. Her own mother slips up calls her 'she/her' all the time. I find it very difficult but manage to avoid all pronouns just say her name. Trying to be nice when her brother was kicking off and she's left upset I told her she was a really kind sister she had a full toddler meltdown aged 10. Apparently I should have said sibling

Chersfrozenface · 13/05/2024 08:18

RebelliousCow · 13/05/2024 08:05

Greta Thunberg has become a new version of Owen Jones. Someone who at one point displayed youthful energy and brilliance, but who has now descended into an unthinking parody of herself. Which is what happens when you become too attached to a particular role or version of yourself and want to keep it going.

Edited

Greta Thunberg has always latched on to the current Cause.

It doesn't actually matter what the subject is, it could be pretty much anything. She just needs a Cause.

She's not unusual in that, of course.

Brewdug · 13/05/2024 09:20

FlirtsWithRhinos · 12/05/2024 23:21

I believe that the performers had been told not to fly the NB flag (not sure of details but I doubt it was a specific NB flag ban, more a general political/activist flag ban) so his doing so was by way of a protest. That also explains why he was waving it around so prominantly during the voting, also the odd small rainbow/trans flags popping up from other performers.

I wondered if that was the case - to be honest I didn't specifically know it was the 'non binary' flag - just a trans umbrella one which is tedious enough. So subversive! 🙄

The attention-seeking behaviour of a certain gang of contestants has been offensive throughout. Those flags should be banned, but you can imagine the uproar after everything that's gone on this year, trying to penalise people being their 'authentic selves'...

Ofcourseshecan · 13/05/2024 09:43

lonelywater · 12/05/2024 02:24

its dead simple-anyone who wants me to lie about the reality I can see with my own eyes can shove it.

Well said!

UsualChaos · 13/05/2024 10:16

It's just like when someone changes their surname after marriage, or when we write the wrong year until we get used to the new one around February.
You get used to it. It's no big deal. I know I'll be a lone voice here on this matter and probably get mauled, but there we are.

BonzoGates · 13/05/2024 10:23

UsualChaos · 13/05/2024 10:16

It's just like when someone changes their surname after marriage, or when we write the wrong year until we get used to the new one around February.
You get used to it. It's no big deal. I know I'll be a lone voice here on this matter and probably get mauled, but there we are.

Well no - you can tell someone's sex so of course you use sex based pronouns.

Communication is complex for me as I'm very hard of hearing and responding to someone relies on a lot of autopilot as I'm often still working out what they've just said. I'm also hyper visual so if someone looks female that's going to be coded into a response.

It's not remotely similar to changing to a new year or using a new surname.