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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hannah Kitching - Lib Dem Councillor

91 replies

HelloWorld68 · 29/04/2024 16:26

Can't see a thread about this but I am genuinely open mouthed at the response a constituent received from this LibDem councillor!!

Are they off their heid!!

Read the room Hannah!!

Hannah Kitching - Lib Dem Councillor
Hannah Kitching - Lib Dem Councillor
Hannah Kitching - Lib Dem Councillor
OP posts:
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6
SinnerBoy · 04/05/2024 21:49

PuttingDownRoots · Today 16:25

HK came fourth in the election for Mayor/PCC, with 11.4%.

Oh no, what a travesty! How did she manage to score so high?

ArabellaScott · 05/05/2024 06:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/05/2024 21:11

This is how you know it's a cult. Almost no one genuinely believes in all the tenets of the faith, so there is the constant cognitive dissonance of claiming to believe that TWAW etc, while knowing it isn't true. They cannot risk making that cognitive dissonance worse, because the whole belief system will then unravel. That is why they can't debate or make any concessions at all.

100%. And it's why they get so angry about those of us who disbelieve, they're scared of slipping up in their devotion, either in their own eyes or especially those of their zealous peer group.

I think that startlingly disproportionately angry response is what has often led people to start asking questions.

Some activists have learned that they must be 'reasonable', even when making the most outlandish claims.

Others didn't get the memo. Or are just not capable.

quicknamechangetopostthis · 05/05/2024 07:19

Name changed just in case she can see who I am from my other posts, but OMG - I know her! We were friends when our dc were small (she has daughters btw). Haven't seen her for years and did not know about this. Knew she was a Lib Dem. Shit.

(she was also heavily involved in a MLM...)

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 05/05/2024 08:13

Is there a correlation between people who get sucked into MLMs, people who become obsessively devoted to an ideology and people who throw themselves into some sort of religious belief and start evangelising/proselytising for it? Probably also with people who get sucked into conspiracy theories. People with a desperate need to belong to a group, to see things in a black and white way, to discern a pattern that makes sense of everything, perhaps.

I don't generally subscribe to 'there are two kinds of people' thinking, but I often remember an exchange on another forum a long time ago where a poster said she would rather be considered credulous than unkind and I had a pretty visceral reaction to that, as I am the opposite.

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2024 09:00

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 05/05/2024 08:13

Is there a correlation between people who get sucked into MLMs, people who become obsessively devoted to an ideology and people who throw themselves into some sort of religious belief and start evangelising/proselytising for it? Probably also with people who get sucked into conspiracy theories. People with a desperate need to belong to a group, to see things in a black and white way, to discern a pattern that makes sense of everything, perhaps.

I don't generally subscribe to 'there are two kinds of people' thinking, but I often remember an exchange on another forum a long time ago where a poster said she would rather be considered credulous than unkind and I had a pretty visceral reaction to that, as I am the opposite.

Yes.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/freedom-mind/202201/multi-level-marketing-groups-operate-much-cults
Operate Much Like Cults
MLMs manipulate, recruit, and maintain members the same as cults do.

MLMs Adopt Cult Techniques
To understand how MLMs recruit and maintain participants requires examining them as cults. Most MLMs use tactics of recruitment, financial manipulation, and the promise of large profits. But, like all cults, they employ thought control, magical thinking, thought-stopping, and self-blame. Failures are blamed directly on the consultants, for lack of hard work or competence. The group has no accountability, and the leaders do not allow questions or criticism.

Massachusetts lawyer Douglas Brooks, an expert on marketing frauds, has said of MLMs, “…you’re trained to avoid people who question whether this is a viable business or not. Which is exactly the same technique that cults use—they try to isolate you from people who question your belief system.”

Recruiters can be very convincing. They use deception in all its forms (withholding vital information, distorting information, and outright lying) to ensnare people who have not learned about cult mind-control techniques. There is no such cultish recruiting in a regular sales job.

AND

How Do Multi-level Marketing Groups Recruit and Retain?
Direct selling depends on social interaction and development of relationships. Recruitment of new distributors is even more dependent on the perception of friendship, caring, and other socially positive images.

Social aspects of recruitment often involve large seminars or other types of scripted events. Successful distributors—they are a very small minority—present their inspiring rags-to-riches stories. Couples may appear together; the husband talking proudly about providing for his family, his wife swearing their marriage has become so much more fun and loving.

One recruitment event was held at a casino, complete with loud music and good food. All of the recruitment is done in specifically designed small increments. A recruit becomes “hooked” before being made fully aware of what they are buying into.

When product distributors experience doubt and ask questions, they are subjected to emotional manipulation. Pressure to stay in the MLM group also comes from within. Social media plays a large part in the selling and recruiting process. Distributors spend a great deal of time, effort, and money to establish their presence on social media sites. The social media “community” is a source of support. Giving it up is frightening. People have often recruited close friends and family into the organization and suffer a great deal of shame and guilt when it falls apart. There is legitimate fear of retaliation from the organization itself.

This isn't the only place that says similar. It's well known and one of the reasons there is such concern about MLMs.

I was going to post something along these lines about the link between MLM and Cults and TRAs before you asked the question.

It didn't exactly surprise me to read that a TRA of this high profile is also into MLM.

And here's a thing...
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/02/doterra-young-living-multilevel-marketing-companies-got-autism-community-hooked-essential-oils/
How Multilevel Marketing Companies Got the Autism Community Hooked on Essential Oils
Vague wellness language and an army of salespeople are miracle treatments for the bottom line.

It looks a lot like MLM companies have a history of actively targeting the autistic community.

And yes we know that autistic people are more at risk of being radicalised or joining cults.

https://theconversation.com/are-autistic-people-at-greater-risk-of-being-radicalised-76726

Terror recruits often seem to come from vulnerable backgrounds. But new research suggests that those with traits of Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) could be more at risk of being radicalised. It follows a number of high-profile cases where autism appears to have played a role in the offender’s behaviour. So if people with ASD could be at higher risk, how can we protect them from falling under the spell of terror organisations such as the so-called Islamic State?

AND

Risk factors
It is important to caution here that there is no substantial link between ASD and terrorism. However, there may be specific risk factors which could increase the risk of offending among people with ASD. Autistic special interests such as fantasy, obsessiveness (extreme compulsiveness), the need for routine/predictability and social/communication difficulties can all increase the vulnerability of an person with ASD to going down the pathway to terrorism.
^^
Searching for a “need to matter” or social connection and support for someone who is alienated or without friends may also present as risk factors. People with an ASD may be more vulnerable to being drawn into increasingly more involved commitment. They also have a tendency to hyper-focus in on their fascinations and interests at the expense of other attachments and life interests. These are potentially the conditions which extremists are increasingly exploiting in people they target for recruitment and training.

Odd coincidence huh?

I think we are liable to see increasing research which begins to link social media, lone wolves and extremism of all different kinds with a high rate of autism. I don't think that it exists as yet but I think it will come because of these higher risk factors unfortunately. It's depressing.

^^

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 05/05/2024 09:19

Thank you, @RedToothBrush, that's extremely interesting and unfortunately not very surprising.

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2024 09:26

For all the stuff about educating children, I think a massive area of lack of thought is about giving children the skills to avoid cults.

There's Prevent but the problem with that is how it's almost just associated with certain causes rather than patterns of love bombing, coercive control and social pressure in a more generalised way.

Precisely because some groups - like Stonewall - also used them for 'good causes'. This has lead to willful blindness and teachers not really recognising and understanding the issues when tasked with teaching about this area.

It also covers abusive relationships generally and how girls are taught to be kind above all else which often goes against their own interests. There needs to be awareness that it's ok to say no and it's not unkind to prioritise your own wellbeing and needs at times.

Abhannmor · 05/05/2024 10:01

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 04/05/2024 19:22

This is how you know it's a cult. Almost no one genuinely believes in all the tenets of the faith, so there is the constant cognitive dissonance of claiming to believe that TWAW etc, while knowing it isn't true. They cannot risk making that cognitive dissonance worse, because the whole belief system will then unravel. That is why they can't debate or make any concessions at all.

Compare this with political beliefs. The Brexit debate was the most divisive in living memory but, even at its most heated phase, most Remain supporters would concede that the EU had some faults and most Leave supporters would admit that it had done some things that are OK. When your belief is at least partly grounded in facts, you can debate those facts without feeling threatened.

No debate is a symptom of weakness, as well as a strategy that is rapidly running out of road.

Good point that one must pretend to believe all the tenets of a cult. In theory this is also true of mainstream religion. Not in practice though*. But TRAs are no doubt aware of the logical incoherence of their argument - even if only subconsciously. I think this is why they flit back and forth between 'sex' and 'gender'.

  • Maybe this is why broad based churches survive and extreme cults come and go? Someone once said ISIS couldn't win ' because there's no future in a death cult'. A movement that sterilises people doesn't have a good prognosis.
YouOKHun · 10/05/2024 20:34

@quicknamechangetopostthis any idea which MLM she was with?

Ofcourseshecan · 11/05/2024 20:19

She’s not suitable to be a councillor, as she clearly serves a movement that does nothing for most of the population, and is actively harmful to many.

RebelliousCow · 11/05/2024 21:24

What is an MLM?

lonelywater · 11/05/2024 21:26

RebelliousCow · 11/05/2024 21:24

What is an MLM?

Multi Level marketing. A Ponzi scheme by any other name-i.e. a scam.

RebelliousCow · 11/05/2024 21:28

lonelywater · 11/05/2024 21:26

Multi Level marketing. A Ponzi scheme by any other name-i.e. a scam.

Thanks!

In more recent times I've come to realise that Lib Dems are a weird bunch. They do not have the passion of Left wingers, nor the pragmatism of Tories - and seem to float around in a rarified, rational - theoretical, very dry strata -which is thoroughly detached from human reality.

duc748 · 11/05/2024 22:00

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 05/05/2024 08:13

Is there a correlation between people who get sucked into MLMs, people who become obsessively devoted to an ideology and people who throw themselves into some sort of religious belief and start evangelising/proselytising for it? Probably also with people who get sucked into conspiracy theories. People with a desperate need to belong to a group, to see things in a black and white way, to discern a pattern that makes sense of everything, perhaps.

I don't generally subscribe to 'there are two kinds of people' thinking, but I often remember an exchange on another forum a long time ago where a poster said she would rather be considered credulous than unkind and I had a pretty visceral reaction to that, as I am the opposite.

The only people I know who got into MLM all came to it from AA/NA.

Maray1967 · 12/05/2024 13:55

HelloWorld68 · 29/04/2024 16:59

OMG! That did make me guffaw, missed that completely!! Hahaha

I’m GC but can we all move past laughing about the place name for God’s sake? It’s pronounced Penny -stun. I grew up very nearby.

Back to the main point - she’s clearly focusing on her opponents in that area. It’s Miriam Cates’ constituency.

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