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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I spoke up last weekend

70 replies

Alwaysaway · 25/04/2024 10:14

So I was on a night out on Monday with a group of women, some I know well, and some I did not.

I mentioned the CASS report as one of the women was a teacher.

Everyone was very much “Males shouldn’t be in women’s sports, but I would use a persons preferred pronouns etc, we need to support these people and be kind etc”

I spoke up and said it was not biologically possible to change sex and I wouldn’t use preferred pronouns as I don’t think it is helpful to kids to be told something that cannot ever happen.

The tone of the evening then changed.

Why do I feel bad that I mentioned this topic?

My utmost respect goes out to the women who publicly said this years ago and faced the storm of criticism.

OP posts:
Abeona · 26/04/2024 11:50

I've been speaking up about this for years, OP, and one of the worst aspects of the whole Gender Ideology debacle has been the realisation how willing to be duped and unwilling to stand up and be counted so many of my (former) friends are. Since Cass a few of them who've called me a hateful bigot and have started back-tracking but they will never be my friends again.

The good news is that there's a whole new set of friends to be made among gender critical women. I have met some of the most amazing, thoughtful, well-informed and can-do women through it and have a whole new social and friendship circle. It's made me realise that I had very little in common with many of the women I once counted as friends. They, it turns out, are the kind of people who won't stand up for anything. In earlier times, my old 'friends' would have been the kind of people who'd have said that Hitler wasn't so bad, really. I don't want friends like that. Keep speaking up. You'll find you attract a better quality of friend if you do.

Righthandcider · 26/04/2024 13:12

Xiaoxiong · 25/04/2024 10:36

peaking is rarely an immediate teleportation to the summit

100% this. I started off completely like your friends, then started thinking through the logical implications of what it really meant to treat men legally as women - for sport, prisons, scholarships, jobs, rape shelters, medicine, discrimination legislation in general.

Once you realise that a) there's a conflict of rights and b) the kindness only appears to be one-way, then slowly the realisation dawns. But you can't hector or berate or bully people into it, they need to think it through on their own.

The irony is that it was stuff online telling me to "educate myself" and "listen to trans people" that really set me on the road to recognising that this is a faith-based ideology (with associated tenets of faith, rituals, language, and cult-like indoctrination), rather than a biological reality.

Here to second (or third) this sentiment.

Also to say OP that I did the same last weekend. Just planted a few seeds. The air got uncomfortable fast. but I changed the subject fairly quickly and didn't go back to it. Agree with others that peaking is long and slow, the scales come off in layers, and the cognitive dissonance can be strong / uncomfortable but if you don't force it people will go on their own journey after you set the ball rolling.

The circs were a visit from my oldest friend with her husband. They are thinking of moving to our area (v rural) from London, and he was worrying aloud that the country would be full of right-wingers etc who complain about 'Guardian Readers', and that because he's a bit mouthy he would be bound to end up in argument in the pub. He said something along the lines of, 'For instance around the trans debate, if anyone is anti-trans I'd be bound to get into an argument because I'm pro-trans and wouldn't stay quiet.'

Well he brought it up first, so in I went. Just gently. I said something like 'Hmmm, so do you think that being pro-trans is a left wing standpoint and being anti-trans is right?'

He agreed. I said, 'That's interesting, because until a few years ago I would have thought the same. But now I actually think that the liberal point of view is to protect people from the idea that humans can or should change sex and all the things that fall out from it.'

He said 'but what about people born in the wrong body'
I was able (thanks Mumsnet, thanks GC Twitter, thanks Helen Joyce, KJK, etc etc) to calmly respond. We are our bodies, Cartesian dualism, etc. How could the wrong brain or soul be put into a body?

They both kind of looked away. Then I gently mentioned sports etc - they both agreed that they were against men in women's sports and spaces.

Then I mentioned the social contagion and newness of the concept. Said the idea of trans people didn't really exist before. Friend mentioned her cousin who is gay and v effeminate, gave him as an example of someone from the 70s/80s who was trans. I said kids think in black and white. He might have wished he was a girl. My sister wished she was a boy so she could do all the boys sports etc. But surely they need to be taught there's no wrong way to be a boy and no wrong way to be a girl - not that you need drugs and surgery.

Talked about how it was especially dangerous for children who were being taught by activist teachers that they are born in the wrong body and must be fixed if they don't conform.

Then went back to the right / left wing thing, saying what opened my eyes was noticing that a lot of solid, intelligent, left-leaning people (especially women) I'd seen online were VERY ANGRY and thought, wait a minute, there's something going on here that I'm missing.

My final point - before we moved on to a nice walk and pub lunch - was to ask them if they'd heard of Autogynephilia. He said not. They have now!

I made sure not to bring one more word of it up for the rest of the day, and have been communicating happily ever since without a mention.

But I'd be amazed if they don't percolate, and now have their antennae out just that little bit more for what's really happening.

Righthandcider · 26/04/2024 13:15

PS Very well done OP!!!

NPET · 17/09/2024 23:47

You'll get over it.
Sorry - that sounds condescending. It's not meant to. Seriously as time goes you'll realise you said nothing wrong. Anyone not agreeing with you was just following what they've been told, rather than what their brains were telling them.

RaspberryParade · 18/09/2024 03:47

@Righthandcider Excellent work.

RaspberryParade · 18/09/2024 03:49

SensibleJaneAndrews · 18/09/2024 00:49

Come to https://www.womensrights.network you will find women who are in exactly your position and are local to you. Trust me, you won’t look back.

Its very hard to get on, you need someone you know who is already on it to vet you and an established twitter account .

Taytoface · 18/09/2024 06:54

Sometimes you just need a bit of time. I have a friend, big into running, does Park Run every week. First time I broached this subject with her, she was totally in the be kind camp. I even asked how would she feel if a TW took her parkrun record. She responded, well, it was just for fun. I backed off going further.

Roll on a bit. TW demands have trashed parkrun for the more competitive runners, with records no longer being posted due to the controversy. There has been alot of discussion in her profession with some batshit stuff happening. My friend is now full on TERF. Sometimes it just needs to directly impact people before they really stop and think.

SensibleJaneAndrews · 18/09/2024 07:44

RaspberryParade · 18/09/2024 03:49

Its very hard to get on, you need someone you know who is already on it to vet you and an established twitter account .

No you don’t. You don’t have to know anyone and you don’t have to be on Twitter. Please DM me if you have any issue joining WRN.

INeedAPensieve · 18/09/2024 09:21

WickedSerious · 25/04/2024 17:27

Is 'hateful' another one of those words that no longer means what it used to?

Or is it fluid?

Or to slightly misquote the fab film The Princess Bride; 'You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.'

Throwing random nonsensical insults around is all they've got now.

Edited to say: well done OP, I've been speaking up IRL too, most of my friends have thankfully agreed with me, one did not and tried to shut me down but that was before the Cass report and I managed to tell her about Hannah Barnes' book and that the interim report was out for Cass (at that point). I've not seen her for over a year now so no idea what her stance is now but she's part of the academic world, doesn't have kids and has a very 'right on' partner who will be driving a lot of her opinions. She told me I was lucky he hadn't overheard me. I wasn't sure if I should have taken that as a threat or not! At the time it seemed such a silly thing to be upset about. Time is usually what gets people there.

rustypickax · 18/09/2024 10:09

I'm confused why TRA's say "educate yourself". I did. That's how I peaked 😂

boobleblingo · 18/09/2024 11:13

rustypickax · 18/09/2024 10:09

I'm confused why TRA's say "educate yourself". I did. That's how I peaked 😂

Yes, I don't think they realise how helpful that is.

annejumps · 18/09/2024 11:15

Of course they don't actually mean "educate yourself," they mean "agree with me" 🤣

Grammarnut · 18/09/2024 15:10

Probably would not have brought this up. However, you did and you made good points. I know I am a coward.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 18/09/2024 16:48

SensibleJaneAndrews · 18/09/2024 07:44

No you don’t. You don’t have to know anyone and you don’t have to be on Twitter. Please DM me if you have any issue joining WRN.

I had to join twitter to try to join WRN (don't know how to do a DM).

Screamingabdabz · 18/09/2024 17:13

Peonies12 · 25/04/2024 15:07

Well if was your friend I certainly wouldn’t be anymore. So hateful. Who cares what others chose to do to their bodies.

It’s not what fully consenting grown adults do to their bodies - no one gives a shit about that.

It’s the hatred and cancellation experienced by innocent people who prefer their life/medicine/science/sports etc based on biological reality than fantasy.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/09/2024 22:01

Screamingabdabz · 18/09/2024 17:13

It’s not what fully consenting grown adults do to their bodies - no one gives a shit about that.

It’s the hatred and cancellation experienced by innocent people who prefer their life/medicine/science/sports etc based on biological reality than fantasy.

Not true. I give a shit what my son is led into doing to himself. He was fine as he was, and now he's being influenced in a very dangerous direction. To what extent he's vulnerable because of his autism, I don't know, but the idea that adults can do whatever they like to themselves is not a healthy idea. Endocrinology and plastic surgery make it much more feasible than it used to be to mess with sex-based bodily attributes and functions, and there are dark forces in society that don't care about anyone's wellbeing.

I don't want him thinking he actually is in some sense a woman because of his own health, and I don't want him thinking he actually is in some sense a woman because of the potential impact on actual women.

DuesToTheDirt · 18/09/2024 22:12

Screamingabdabz · 18/09/2024 17:13

It’s not what fully consenting grown adults do to their bodies - no one gives a shit about that.

It’s the hatred and cancellation experienced by innocent people who prefer their life/medicine/science/sports etc based on biological reality than fantasy.

There are aspects of what "fully consenting grown adults do to their bodies" that people should give a shit about, and actually I'm not thinking just about sex-based modifications.

A while ago there was a photo doing the rounds of social media of a teacher (tutor? I forget) with extreme body modifications, including changes to his eyeballs. Comments were mostly along the lines of "We should accept everyone for who they are," but I thought, "He can do whatever he wants to his body, but I don't want him near my kids. There is no way I would want someone with such poor judgement (and mostly likely accompanying mental health issues) teaching my child."

Righthandcider · 20/09/2024 10:16

Sorry to hear about your son.

For me the outrageous part is nobody is 'doing things to their own body'. It's being done TO them, by doctors who swore an oath to do no harm.

Righthandcider · 20/09/2024 10:16

Sorry, that last one was for you @RapidOnsetGenderCritic

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