I spoke up last weekend

[Alwaysaway]

So I was on a night out on Monday with a group of women, some I know well, and some I did not.

I mentioned the CASS report as one of the women was a teacher.

Everyone was very much “Males shouldn’t be in women’s sports, but I would use a persons preferred pronouns etc, we need to support these people and be kind etc”

I spoke up and said it was not biologically possible to change sex and I wouldn’t use preferred pronouns as I don’t think it is helpful to kids to be told something that cannot ever happen.

The tone of the evening then changed.

Why do I feel bad that I mentioned this topic?

My utmost respect goes out to the women who publicly said this years ago and faced the storm of criticism.

Most of us care about the opinions other have of us, particularly friends. You said nothing wrong, over time you’ll learn to care less and find people who share the same values

Even if they don’t realise it, those women are all still tervan for their sport opinions as nothing but full capitulation will do for TRAs. So you may feel like the outsider, but I guarantee you gave food for thought so some of them. And i think peaking is rarely an immediate teleportation to the summit, rather a journey through the foothills towards ever higher basecamps… You just handed them a signpost. It takes bravery. Don’t be put off. You did well.

Why do I feel bad that I mentioned this topic?

You feel bad because women have been heavily socialised to be kind, and this is presented as something that is easy to do to be kind with no downside.

Unfortunately this is something you won't be able to mention again with this group of friends. I have an old group of school friends like this - I love them dearly and we have enough shared history and friendship that we just avoid this one subject. I have GC friends elsewhere and this board is a lifeline as well.

Thanks for the kind message. You are right. I needed to hear that.

It was the Lia Thomas story that opened me eyes up to what was happening and then I found this board. I have been following for years, but never posted or said anything in public.

Slowly adapting saves altitude sickness!

Sometimes people have to get there slowly because if they have been in an environment that is very twaw or have not yet had chance to think through the issues they need time to understand that they are not being "unkind" but thinking about another group of people.

peaking is rarely an immediate teleportation to the summit

100% this. I started off completely like your friends, then started thinking through the logical implications of what it really meant to treat men legally as women - for sport, prisons, scholarships, jobs, rape shelters, medicine, discrimination legislation in general.

Once you realise that a) there's a conflict of rights and b) the kindness only appears to be one-way, then slowly the realisation dawns. But you can't hector or berate or bully people into it, they need to think it through on their own.

The irony is that it was stuff online telling me to "educate myself" and "listen to trans people" that really set me on the road to recognising that this is a faith-based ideology (with associated tenets of faith, rituals, language, and cult-like indoctrination), rather than a biological reality.

I agree with you, personally. I don't believe lying to children is beneficial, and I don't think it's kind to lie to them about something that cannot ever be.

It's a hard thing to do, especially when you're not sure of the reception, but I think it's important that you do it and I thank you for doing so.

When no one speaks up, people assume that everyone agrees with them - you gave other women the opportunity to think about it and to realise that there are different views. You modelled that it is possible to speak up, although it is true that a cold reception could make them fearful of the consequences of doing so.

These small acts of bravery are important - those who declare transwomen are women do not do it quietly or fearfully - they shout it out and this enthusiasm/zealotry is quite influential, we recognise the strength of it and it can make it very hard to disagree with.

You may find that one of those women speak to you privately about this, which may feel safer to them at the moment.

It isn't easy, but it is important.

You have all made me feel so much better. I do love mumsnet.

It was very strange for a statement like you cannot change biological sex to be treated as a bold and unkind thing to say.

I agree it is a cult but a very strange one where adults are colluding with the cult instead of trying to help the children break free. We need a public enquiry.

It was listening to trans people that persuaded me that there was something badly wrong with some of their thinking. Then I discovered that the only people making sense were gender critical or conservative, and I had already rejected the ultra-conservative position that gender stereotypes should be followed.

I spoke up and said it was not biologically possible to change sex and I wouldn’t use preferred pronouns as I don’t think it is helpful to kids to be told something that cannot ever happen.

The tone of the evening then changed.

Why do I feel bad that I mentioned this topic?

This is most excellent OP.

It isn’t until people stop using ‘preferred pronouns’ that they clearly see things as they are.

When a clear-thinking person voices out loud that they will not incorrectly sex people and why, it causes listeners a bit of a wobble. It seems ‘shockingly rude’ and therefore forbidden for ‘polite women’.

You just need to give it a minute.

The ring of truth needs a minute or two to resonate.

It will be interesting to see who is changed by it.

"I spoke up and said it was not biologically possible to change sex and I wouldn’t use preferred pronouns as I don’t think it is helpful to kids to be told something that cannot ever happen.

The tone of the evening then changed."

The tone changed because they've now been given something to think about. You don't have to actually think about a topic when you're in #BeKind mode. You just accept what you hear and polish your halo for being a good little kind person. Ah, the warm glow that brings! Now, somebody didn't just go with the flow and they've got to think about it. Some people really don't like having to think about something unpleasant - and let's face it, what is being done to children by #BeKind adults is deeply unpleasant. And they don't just have to think about the unpleasantness of transitioning children - they have to think about the unpleasantness of themselves, because they've been going along with it. It's a sobering realisation. I'd take the tone change as positive - they're not just strolling past it, unaffected. You've made them think.

@Alwaysaway

As with most things it gets easier the more often you do it. You've done the hard bit which is to speak up for the first time!

The world didn't stop turning.

Next time it will be easier.

🍷

@Alwaysaway I salute you sister! Your courage is admirable.
I suspect that part of the reason the mood changed is that one or more of those women were in agreement with you but are not able to say so publicly for family or career reasons and they must have found your bravery a challenge to their complacency. Some may feel able to tell you so privately which will be the beginning of their coming out As a terf and they'll be grateful to you for it. As for the ones who are true believers, you deserve better friends.

peaking is rarely an immediate teleportation to the summit

There was an interesting exchange a while back about losing "scales upon scales" over your eyes and how it's a gradual process.

This link drops you into a discussion in 2022 and it's well worth reading from there onwards.

[Quotes another poster]"You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?messages=100&pg=1^^ [/Q]

This thread has been astonishing. I thought the scales had fallen from my eyes several months ago and realise now the scales had only fallen from the scales. The process of burrowing down beneath the layers of gas lighting, compromising, desire to be kind and inclusive that have clouded the arguments and caused people to find these issues confusing is really a journey in understanding how massively the world is run by men, for men. I thought I knew that, but I didn’t really have a clue.

I say this to my ftm all the time. I'm lucky due to her kind heart she doesn't hate me for it(we only have male clothing left of this ideology after 7 years of hell)
My DC would use different pronouns for her friends. I am happy to use a chosen name but that's it. I did the same as you OP the other day and outed myself as a gc person. I also said most trans people are gentle souls but I'm talking from knowing two people who have had full surgery not just put on a dress.
When questioned I just say natal. I did lose one friend who said I was not supporting my DC. All these years on we are in a different place.

When we started talking about this subject in my friendship group one friend was silent and clearly uncomfortable and went to go for a walk by herself.

Next time she brought the subject up and was full on TERF like us. She'd obviously gone away and "educated herself".

Good on you OP. You'll hopefully have triggered some further thinking in some of them.

Well done OP. Yes my friends sometimes give me strange looks for being terfy but I really hope I'm giving them something to reflect on and it's amazing how many terf conversations I have on a one to one basis.

I think when you challenge the received wisdom, you also challenge those who espouse it. If they are friends it can be tough. If we had a truly free society where different ideas were acceptable, like we used to, then that would be fine. I did have a dear friend (now passed) with whom I vehemently disagreed on many things that we both felt majorly important. But we liked each other regardless.

Sadly, in our current culture this is a radical thing to do. It shows how far the freedoms many of us took for granted in the 90s and 00s have shifted. But well done for being a free thinker and have the courage to own that. It is a gift! And yes it gets easier to live with over time.

Well if was your friend I certainly wouldn’t be anymore. So hateful. Who cares what others chose to do to their bodies.

Other people can do what they like to their bodies. If they're adults. However, an adult doing what they like with their body doesn't mean they get to bring that body into places where they're not allowed to go and doesn't mean that children should be medicalised.

You're very quick to throw words like "hateful" around, but I would imagine that if I were to start flinging words like "wilfully stupid" around, you probably wouldn't like it at all.

You don't care about sterilising children, and you think that yours is the moral stance?

Interesting.

Well done, OP. As a pp said, it gets easier. Better to be a good person than a "nice" one.

There's always one 😂😂😂😂

Indeed. The word ‘hate’ is used rather liberally and inappropriately these days.