I spoke up last weekend

[Alwaysaway]

So I was on a night out on Monday with a group of women, some I know well, and some I did not.

I mentioned the CASS report as one of the women was a teacher.

Everyone was very much “Males shouldn’t be in women’s sports, but I would use a persons preferred pronouns etc, we need to support these people and be kind etc”

I spoke up and said it was not biologically possible to change sex and I wouldn’t use preferred pronouns as I don’t think it is helpful to kids to be told something that cannot ever happen.

The tone of the evening then changed.

Why do I feel bad that I mentioned this topic?

My utmost respect goes out to the women who publicly said this years ago and faced the storm of criticism.

When you say the tone changed, do you mean they discussed it more, or was it negative as if you’d said something awful?

Either way, I can imagine there were people there who think the same as you, but had less courage - next time they might have decided it’s time to speak. There will also be people who simply haven’t thought about it and maybe your comment will stir something in them so they will find out more.

I’ve also spoken out in a meeting when someone said gender was a protected characteristic and I corrected it. There was a kind of silence, and then nothing else came of it at all, which I admit was both a relief and a bit of an anti-climax!

I think making a start is a huge step. Glad to hear more of us are stepping in there!

I think when people say 'be kind' they have not thought it through. What is kind about telling a young same sex attracted teen that they can change sex? Do you tell them before medical interventions or after? Surely it is more kind to tell the truth and support them

OP.

Remember the story of the Emperor with no clothes? Being GC is a bit like that at the moment, so many people know what they see, know what they know, know what is happening - but don’t, can’t or won’t speak up. It takes courage to be the first , but once the words are spoken they will take flight, multiply , and give strength to others to add their own words.

Yes.

It's like the threads on FWR that discuss phenomena like preference falsification. Broadly, when we misrepresent our own wants and thoughts under perceived social pressure and apprehension about the penalty of speaking up.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?reply=112699945&

We should care if people choose to harm their bodies. Especially if they are friends. Harming a body causes pain and suffering. A genuinely caring soul would try to help with honesty and compassion. In no "good faith" understanding could you say that is hateful. Honestly, hear yourself!

I think the Cass Report has triggered something and it has given people permission to say hold on, perhaps this trans stuff is a bit more than just declaring pronouns and rainbow lanyards.

People are now having to decide whether they do actually support sterilisation of kids under the banner of #bekind, and if that is a bit dodgy then what else about this ideology is dodgy? it is uncomfortable to realise you got it wrong.

Thanks everyone (apart from that one..🙄) I am feeling much happier this afternoon. I standby what I said, and I will get better at delivering the message with more practise!

In terms of how the tone changed, it was definitely air of uncomfortable silence, with no one believing I had adopted such a public stance and a firm position. The issue of the pronouns was what caused pushback and challenge, why could I not just “be kind” 🙄

They are just scared, OP, because you have voiced something many of them probably thought but didn't dare say.

I have just come from a work meeting (nothing to do with gender) where there was professional but strong disagreement between 2 viewpoints. I spoke for one side. I know for a fact that many people present agreed with me, because they were messaging me throughout the meeting, but only a couple said so publicly. At that was over how to redesign ambulance handovers, not anything as contentious or taboo as gender issues.

Most people will not stick their necks out. That doesn't mean that they think you were wrong.

Is 'hateful' another one of those words that no longer means what it used to?

Or is it fluid?

Anorexia?
Drug use?
Cutting in self harm?

All those I have cared about too….

It's possible that part of the reason for the change of tone and uncomfortable silence was that some of them realised you are right and felt foolish.

I don't understand why you wouldn't care that children are making irreversible changes to their bodies. Changes with serious future ramifications that even WPATH are on video saying they can't possibly fully comprehend ?

first of all, a lot of trans people don’t do any thing to their bodies.

secondly, where it is young vulnerable people having irreversible medical treatment we should all be concerned

Well done, OP. Most people are still frightened or embarrassed to speak out. But I'd be pretty sure that many of the women who hear you will agree, even if they haven't yet had the courage to say so. The more often people hear reality being defended, the less of a hold the fantasists have over them.

And just remember that no one would have turned a hair at what you said, 10 years ago, OP.

This is a temporary madness that has infected society - like tulip mania, only with lifelong consequences for some, sadly. It is now receding. In a few years' time, your friends will have forgotten that they ever went along with it.

Slightly different perspective but bringing up any serious subject can cause tension, especially in a group. One to one it's easier to handle the social situation but with additional people in the conversation there is more to think about. I don't know how all the difficult conversations are going to be had. If people meet up for a social occasion they may not have the emotional bandwidth to process the discussion.

... opined a spokesperson for the pharma industry, stamping their foot and looking very cross.

"Be Kind". Well yes, we should ALL be kind - but don't we have to determine what is kind and what is not, first?

I don't think lying to children is 'kind'.
I don't think reinforcing delusion is 'kind'.
I don't think cheering on children to a life as a sterile medical patient who will suffer the effects of cross-sex hormone and experimental surgery is 'kind'.

It's far kinder to keep children in touch with reality.

Otherwise, what you are doing is being kind TO YOURSELF by sweeping it all under the carpet and not worrying your pretty little head about it.

And it's [BRB, searching for phrase I discovered yesterday on another thread]…transmisia to imply that there is a need for any manifested indication. Apparently.

Transmisia (also called Transphobia) is prejudice plus power; anyone of any gender can have/exhibit gender-based prejudice, but in North America (and really worldwide), cisgender people have the institutional power, therefore Transmisia is a systemized discrimination or antagonism directed against transgender/nonbinary/genderqueer/agender persons. Transmisia and cissexism are rooted in a desire to maintain the gender binary (i.e. the categories of 'male' and 'female'), a social construction which seeks to assign gender based on a person's declared sex at birth. Transmisia, as well as the gender binary from which it extends, obscures the reality of the spectrum and fluidity of gender and marginalizes the identities and experiences of persons whose gender does not align with their birth-assigned sex and/or who do not align with either category of male or female.
Trans folks can be agents of transmisia as well (particularly when acting as representatives of cis-dominated systems, such as higher education) by perpetuating the notion of gender binary or "passing" superiority and using it to discriminate against other transgender people. For example, a trans woman at a company may refuse to hire a genderqueer person because their gender presentation might "confuse" customers, or a trans male administrator at a traditionally women's college may deny the application of a non-passing trans woman for not "transitioning enough."

https://simmons.libguides.com/anti-oppression/anti-transmisia

I’ve read that word salad through several times and nope, still can’t understand what its bleating on about.

The only bit that did make sense was the author of the quote at the end, because that absolutely is a load of bellhooks.

And bloody well done @Alwaysaway

Well done, OP. I does get easier.

I have been outspoken about my GC views for several years now; I don't initiate the discussion, but if it comes up, I will have my say.

So last weekend when my son said to me "So how does it feel now that the Cass report has come out?", as I'm pretty sure he used to dismiss me as 'Mum having one of her rants' in the past, it felt so good to be able to say "Vindicated.".

And I am SO proud of being one of the army of Stickerwomen.

"Don't be mean" is a far better option.

Over the years, there has been FWR discussion that the next schism will be NBs (and variations) and those parts of the trans umbrella that uphold the existence of binaries. I think that the 2nd paragraph lends weight to this view.

The final paragraph is like an updated version of arguments from the 1970s about rejecting others' 'gatekeeping standards' (previously posted on FWR but lost the link).

This too, from the Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group, originally published in 1972:

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us .

archive.org/details/cometogetheryear00walt/page/8/mode/2up