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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 17:40

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:38

I beg the thread's pardon but if there are only 'exceptions' in the EA then why does Anneliese Dodds keep referring to 'exemptions'?

Because she is a Labour MP who either dont care or have read some bullshit from Stonewall.

But thanks for a post that's one thread.

I wonder how many Labour MPs, let alone future candidates have ever read the EA and how it operates?

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EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:42

‘Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the sex recorded at birth), as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment. Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so.’

‘A business may have a policy about providing its service to transsexual users, but this policy must still be applied on a case-by-case basis. It is necessary to balance the needs of the transsexual person for the service, and the disadvantage to them if they are refused access to it, against the needs of other users, and any disadvantage to them, if the transsexual person is allowed access. To do this may require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user).’


You can see from these paragraphs a business is going to be reluctant to end up in court, and a case by case basis is hard and asking users also

You can see why we are where we are with the law as it is

Are there any other court cases besides Sarah’s?

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:46

Dodds is not just a Labour MP, she's a shadow minister and this is supposed to be her brief. She's normally very careful in how she words things and repeats statements verbatim. If she's substituting the word in error then that's quite a slip.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:47

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 17:46

Heh heh, Floisme

I put this into threadreader app and this is the link:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1741545323837763641.html

Ha why didn't I think of that Grin Thank you.

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 17:49

Sorry missed out the main point of the post just upthread about SSE.

That being that women have to justify why they are needed on a case by case basis.

As we know even though RCC were set up by women for women because of the principle that women were more likely to feel able to talk to other women, and that women are more likely to understand the trauma of rape.

So whilst I accept that we know some women's groups have been Stonewalled, the underlying misogyny of society, ie the MRAs who delight in the misogyny of the TRAs, just out of ingrained disrespect for women and to save money took the law as a green light to do away with women only provision that society as a whole had instinctively thought of as single sex. eg public toilets, hospital wards, changing rooms.

So this bias in the law against women's rights based on their sex has had a far wider negative implication than just those where TW insist on inserting themselves.

ie Women can no longer rely on society to do the right think by women. Not because they are all TRAs, but are engrained by the culture in this society that women dont have rights, or if they do women should accept they will always come second to every body else's.

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Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:50

Admittedly India Willoughby and Robin Moira White are not fans of Foran either @IwantToRetire so maybe you're right.

Anyway there it is, I'm sure posters can decide for themselves.

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 17:52

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:38

It looks like this is from 2019. I think it's been updated by Kishwer Falkner. It was the stonewall friendly version before.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:52

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/04/2024 16:07

Agreed. The law, the social contract and an insistence that people respect this - just as they have done for so long in order to help society to function and women and children to be safe.
It would help if politicians modelled respecting the social contract but looking at the behaviour of some and the silence of their leaders, suspect that's asking too much?

The law, the social contract and an insistence that people respect this - just as they have done for so long in order to help society to function and women and children to be safe.

This sounds like music to my ears. Imagine if we got back to this place

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 17:56

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:42

‘Generally, a business which is providing separate services or single-sex services should treat a transsexual person according to the sex in which the transsexual person presents (as opposed to the sex recorded at birth), as it is unlawful to discriminate against someone because of gender reassignment. Although a business can exclude a transsexual person or provide them with a different service, this is only if it can objectively justify doing so.’

‘A business may have a policy about providing its service to transsexual users, but this policy must still be applied on a case-by-case basis. It is necessary to balance the needs of the transsexual person for the service, and the disadvantage to them if they are refused access to it, against the needs of other users, and any disadvantage to them, if the transsexual person is allowed access. To do this may require discussion with service users (maintaining confidentiality for the transsexual service user).’


You can see from these paragraphs a business is going to be reluctant to end up in court, and a case by case basis is hard and asking users also

You can see why we are where we are with the law as it is

Are there any other court cases besides Sarah’s?

Is that from the EHRC guidance of 2018?

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:56

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 17:52

It looks like this is from 2019. I think it's been updated by Kishwer Falkner. It was the stonewall friendly version before.

Oh bother!

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 17:57

Is there a published more up to date page?

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 18:21

Just a reminder that the ERHC does not write the law it interprets it.

And has shown that like other arms of the Government, it can (and some say) may have been captured.

So yes, would be interesting to see what they would say today.

But still doesn't take away from the fact that the law says those providing single sex services have to justify it as being "proportional".

So much for having a protected characteristic, if its protection isn't automatic but has to be justified.

OP posts:
EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:25

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 18:21

Just a reminder that the ERHC does not write the law it interprets it.

And has shown that like other arms of the Government, it can (and some say) may have been captured.

So yes, would be interesting to see what they would say today.

But still doesn't take away from the fact that the law says those providing single sex services have to justify it as being "proportional".

So much for having a protected characteristic, if its protection isn't automatic but has to be justified.

Yes you’re right it’s just an interpretation

Is it fair to say that the law as it is does not protect women but the courts are where the issue of justification can be decided?

I don’t think we have many court cases atm (for obvious reasons)

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 18:26

In fact interesting to read the EHRC letter to the Senedd that seems to contradict the Haldane ruling on representation on Boards.

In particular, we are concerned that the Bill appears to base eligibility for inclusion on the quota list, on candidates’ declarations of whether or not they are a woman, and this in conjunction with the term ‘gender’ may be insufficiently clear. In short, it may lead to the inclusion of quotas based on a person’s selfidentified gender as opposed to their legal sex, and may therefore be inconsistent with the Act.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/our-letter-senedd-reform-bill-committee

(edit ie a later statement than the guidance written in 2022)

Our letter to the Senedd Reform Bill Committee | EHRC

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/our-letter-senedd-reform-bill-committee

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Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 18:30

The article I posted above is interesting.

This week the Equality and Human Rights Commission, an independent watchdog responsible for monitoring the effectiveness of equality law throughout the U.K., advised ministers to carefully consider clarifying the meaning of sex in the Equality Act.

Annaliese Dodds says, if I'm right, they're not going to change the Equality Act.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:48

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:42

It’s not as if we had guards in 2003 pre GRA

Go back to that

Trans women used the ladies then too Confused they didn't just pop into existence with the GRA

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:49

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:48

Trans women used the ladies then too Confused they didn't just pop into existence with the GRA

Who said they did? Hmm

We still functioned as a society and it was better for women and children

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:49

GoodOldEmmaNess · 22/04/2024 16:06

Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Surely this is a red herring? No plausible suggested policy has been focused on 'banning' males from women's services. The real issue has always been around clarifying the fact that service providers are permitted to provide single-sex services.
The service providers would just have to do what they have always done - ask people to leave, terminate memberships, whatever. The only difference is that they wouldn't have to fear that they were breaking the law when they did this

I agree with you. The law already allows this, no need for a separate law. But some people are adamant we need one 🤷‍♀️

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:51

The suggestion of security guards however is nonsensical as a few posters have pointed out

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:55

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 18:49

Who said they did? Hmm

We still functioned as a society and it was better for women and children

You said go back to pre 2003 in respect of changing rooms/toilets etc
I'm not clear what you mean as TW used to use those spaces then.

The point I was making is if people genuinely want fully single sex spaces (I.e. no TW ever by law) then there will need to be some policing of the spaces. Businesses may not want to bear the financial or reputational costs.

It's really not that hard to follow and makes me wonder if you've thought through your position or if you just expect someone else to wave a magic wand and give you what you want.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 18:56

I don't know why you are so dismissive of Michael Foran, IWantToRetire He is an academic lawyer.

We don't have to justify women-only therapy sessions in RCCs, or women-only RCCs, on a case-by-case basis. Blanket rules are lawful. That is unaffected by Haldane. It's one of the examples given in the explanatory notes for the Act of a single-sex service that can exclude all males, with or without a GRC.

The same section of the GRA which says that males with a GRC become female for all purposes (section 9 subsection 1) has a further subsection (subsection 3) which says:
Subsection (1) is subject to provision made by this Act or any other enactment or any subordinate legislation.
This means that you can distinguish males with GRCs from women in later legislation and the EA does. None of this was contentious before TRA misinformation and Haldane's judgement.

Her judgement was partially overturned by the Inner House to restore maternity and pregnancy protections to WCM (women who claim to be men). The Inner House agreed with Lady Haldane that Sex in the Equality Act meant bio sex + legal sex BUT also decided that the same word - Sex - must mean bio sex alone in the provisions about maternity and pregnancy. Foran argues that to give the word sex two different meanings in the same piece of legislation doesn't make sense.
Sex = bio sex was the normal meaning of the word "sex" at the time.
Foran argues that none of the provisions or exceptions of the Equality Act make sense if they don't refer to bio sex. Eg where the condition of applying the SSE is "that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex", women's objection to a male person in the room would be because he was male, not because he didn't have a certificate to say he was female.

Anyway, we'll see what the Supreme Court decide.

Foran also pointed out the protection of the privacy, dignity and safety of women are human rights. So they will always be legitimate aims. Refuges, communal toilets, changing rooms and showers can always be women-only.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 19:00

I'm guessing here, but it may be that you think the EA is biased against women because there have to be legal justifications for excluding men. I would think that's partly because it is an anti-discrimination act which starts from the premise that discrimination on the basis of 9 PCs is unlawful. This premise actually protects women because the default position is that women can't be excluded for spurious reasons. And that also applies to men because it's equality legislation.
The other reason I would put forward is that has to take account of the effect of the GRA. It does so by tightening up the definition of "woman" to exclude males. It makes a nod towards the legal fact that male GRC-holders are deemed to have changed sex, and makes it only a little more difficult to exclude them from women-only services - but they absolutely can be excluded, even after Haldane's judgement.

It's not the EA that stuffs women, it's the GRA. The EA redresses the balance.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 19:01

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 18:55

You said go back to pre 2003 in respect of changing rooms/toilets etc
I'm not clear what you mean as TW used to use those spaces then.

The point I was making is if people genuinely want fully single sex spaces (I.e. no TW ever by law) then there will need to be some policing of the spaces. Businesses may not want to bear the financial or reputational costs.

It's really not that hard to follow and makes me wonder if you've thought through your position or if you just expect someone else to wave a magic wand and give you what you want.

It doesn’t bother me what you think of my posts. I’m posting on FWR because I appreciate engaging with others who are reasonable

If you can’t understand maybe read again

You’ve misunderstood and I doubt you’ll attempt to do so but if you can look at @MrsOvertonsWindow post earlier who I agree with and the general conversation which shows our thoughts

I’m with @Floisme on this too, there are others you can engage with. Enjoy