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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:11

They’re still poor laws looking at the outcomes we see today

Just in terms of harm to women and children and that it enables men to challenge

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 11:15

I think the problem lies in the fact that the rights are with organisations not women. I don't have a right to a single sex changing room, it's M+S who have the right to provide them IF they choose.

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 11:24

Adding to that ‐ the fact is that they can't use the single sex exception and include men as women.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:28

M&S would be challenged in the courts if they tried. What the outcome would be would be a test case. But as another poster on here says no one tries to exclude men currently - bar the case I linked below.

It’s the issue with a law that is open to interpretation and the outcome we have due to another law the GRA which enables the legal challenge

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 11:47

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 11:11

They’re still poor laws looking at the outcomes we see today

Just in terms of harm to women and children and that it enables men to challenge

Exactly

Floisme · 22/04/2024 11:50

I believe the EA act also talks about both single sex 'exemptions' and 'exceptions'. I can't remember precisely the differences between them but I think the former is decided on a case case by case basis while the latter is fixed and permanent? I remember Michael Foran (at least I think it was him) explaining and there was a thread about it on here.

Anyway Anneliese Dodds has talked about retaining the former but has not, as far as I'm aware, mentioned the latter:
'Labour wants to modernise the Gender Recognition Act while making sure that that does not override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act.' (Hansard 6/12/23) Likewise in a Guardian article (July 23).

I accept that she might be just have been trying to simplify things so as not to bamboozle us non lawyers. But the extract I quoted is from a parliamentary speech where they don't normally shy away from technical language. Plus she's normally very careful with her wording.

There was a time when I'd have trusted them and let it go but that time is well and truly up.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2023-12-06/debates/E7306EC2-EFCB-4331-BD82-F01FDF67CCBF/GenderRecognition

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories

WickedSerious · 22/04/2024 11:57

Datun · 22/04/2024 09:36

Indeed. I would like to see it more generally understood that the likes of Marks & Spencer, for instance, are completely within their legal right to exclude men who claim they are women, from the women's changing room.

If they won't do it, headlines could say so, so that women everywhere can vote with their feet, and force them into it.

it doesn't have to be Marks & Spencer. It doesn't have to be anywhere specific.

Just a journalist publicising it.

Or a politician.

They could make an announcement along the lines of 'We know that legally we're allowed to exclude men from women's spaces but we really don't want to.Because at the end of the day their feelz are more important than our profits'.

Spell it out for us and then everyone knows where they stand.

duc748 · 22/04/2024 12:02

If only some journo would ask Dodds what the distinction is between exemptions and exceptions, eh? Labour give every reason to be suspicious with their jesuitical mutterings. They talk about updating the GRA, but as far as I know, are pretty careful not to say exactly how. The only feasible change you could make to the Act would be to make getting a GRC a bit easier, surely? Is there anything else?

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 12:06

Whatthechicken · 21/04/2024 06:52

I am so fed up of being lectured about this issue being a ‘single issue’ and instead I should be thinking about the ‘greater good’. This is not a single issue. This is about women’s fundamental human rights. If we are not recognised as a sex class within law then we are ultimately second class citizens - and for me that underpins everything else.

If they don’t care about women being recognised within legislation as a sex class, why would they care about women’s health, education, disabled women, women of colour, working class women etc.

Women always come as a second thought…’once we’ve sorted out this and that - then we’ll look after women and their rights’.

Not this time for me. For me, once our legitimacy and rights are protected in law, I will fight/protest and campaign for everything else. If our rights as a sex class are brushed away, we won’t be getting them back anytime soon and we will be in a much weaker position to have any influence or say over anything else.

Yes. Andrea Dworkin wrote very well about this in her essay about her time in socialist circles. Always being told to hut up about feminism and ignore the sexism and misogyny of her fellow travellers for the 'greater good'. Once the glorious revolution had happened, then the socialists might get round to sorting out the rights of the silly little women. Yeah right.

Put it this way. If Labour's stance was that they couldn't define Black people, that Black was a feeling and the whitest ofwhitest whitey could identify as a black person based on the fact that they liked Reggae and once went to Carnival. Would anyone expect Black people to vote for a party like that? No matter how in sync they were with that party's other policies?

borntobequiet · 22/04/2024 12:08

Good to see the NSPCC in the spotlight.

duc748 · 22/04/2024 12:14

Shouldn't have to be said, of course, but the Brighton rape crisis centre linked to upthread: Jeez, words fail me. Is it not the most basic and obvious thing in the world that a rape crisis centre, of all places, should be staffed by women?

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 12:29

duc748 · 22/04/2024 12:14

Shouldn't have to be said, of course, but the Brighton rape crisis centre linked to upthread: Jeez, words fail me. Is it not the most basic and obvious thing in the world that a rape crisis centre, of all places, should be staffed by women?

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

Help Sarah’s Legal Challenge to Secure Female Only Rape Crisis Therapy

I’m suing Brighton’s Rape Crisis Centre Survivors’ Network for discrimination because it refused to provide a women-only peer support group. I am a survivor of sexual abuse.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/help-sarahs-legal-challenge/

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 12:30

This reply has been withdrawn

Message withdrawn - duplicate post

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 12:31

Maybe this one will be allowed

For Sarah. Information about the Brighton case directly from her. A link to raise funds also embedded here on Twitter - directly to her dedicated site.

https://twitter.com/sarahsurviving?lang=en-GB

https://twitter.com/sarahsurviving?lang=en-GB

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 12:44

WickedSerious · 22/04/2024 11:57

They could make an announcement along the lines of 'We know that legally we're allowed to exclude men from women's spaces but we really don't want to.Because at the end of the day their feelz are more important than our profits'.

Spell it out for us and then everyone knows where they stand.

Because at the end of the day their feelz are more important than our profits'.

I think a more accurate statement is "at the end of the day, their feelz are important to our profits"

  1. Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)
  1. Reputational risk of trans people complaining is higher and therefore more brand damaging, than GC people complaining.

I'm not sure there is that much any government could do to compel private companies to provide single sex spaces. I'd have thought if they try some companies will stop providing the space at all, or make them fully mixed sex which only really benefits men.

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 12:47

Imnobody4 · 22/04/2024 11:15

I think the problem lies in the fact that the rights are with organisations not women. I don't have a right to a single sex changing room, it's M+S who have the right to provide them IF they choose.

This is it. That's it, spot on.

It's bloody infuriating. The fact that our politicians are content to NOT FORCE organisations to follow the bloody law is a betrayal of democracy.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 12:53

CocoapuffPuff · 22/04/2024 12:47

This is it. That's it, spot on.

It's bloody infuriating. The fact that our politicians are content to NOT FORCE organisations to follow the bloody law is a betrayal of democracy.

The law is weak and doesn’t predetermine the outcome

It’s why the rape centre case is going to court

Men will challenge any exclusion in courts, right up to the EC probably

It is a fault of the law created previously

As for what Labour propose there are conflicting lines as in pp on one hand they say private companies won’t be compelled to provide SS but on the other something will be ‘strengthened’

What exactly?

And how?

Their laws created this mess. It’s the worst kind of societal restructuring that they can’t fix

Unless the laws are changed

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 13:27

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 10:59

Is this where “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” is relevant?

In which case it sounds like the courts would be asked to decide on any challenge

Has there been a case yet? I don’t think there has from women, but if men were excluded they may do so

Is this where “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”is relevant?

Yes, that's what I getting at. I won't add anything more because IANAL.
The EHRC guidance used to be very TWAW but I don't think the Act itself is.

My take is this - the implication (from bad training courses) was that you can only ever lawfully make separate provision for MCW with a GRC in exceptional circumstances + you have to decide on an individual case-by-case basis + you're not allowed to ask to see a GRC + a GRC doesn't require any modifications = you have to allow any man to use female facilities, even your 6 foot 4 trucker with a full beard, just in case he does hold a GRC saying he is female and he sues you. And in any case self-ID is on its way, etc, etc.

That was the strategy. But societal misogyny made it work. Hardly anyone came back with, but what if the women sue me? Or, but Dave from marketing obviously isn't a woman, he's going to stick out like a sore thumb in the ladies. Or no, I won't piss off my women customers/service users/clients.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:41

That's why I think the difference between 'exemptions' and 'exceptions' appears so significant. If a revised EA allowed only for exemptions would that mean every single case had to be argued in the courts? What organisation or service would risk that?

I'm not a lawyer either, just a jaundiced one time Labour party member.

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 13:47

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:41

That's why I think the difference between 'exemptions' and 'exceptions' appears so significant. If a revised EA allowed only for exemptions would that mean every single case had to be argued in the courts? What organisation or service would risk that?

I'm not a lawyer either, just a jaundiced one time Labour party member.

Excellent point, I did not know that. I kept thinking I'd misremembered the word. Michael Foran, you say? I shall look on his blog/website to see if I can find the piece you're talking about.

Thelnebriati · 22/04/2024 13:50

Another problem is that afaik, when they wrote the EA you could only get a new birth certificate after you had been granted a GRC.
So although you couldn't ask to see a GRC you could ask to see a birth certificate or passport, if there was any doubt. And thats no longer the case, anyone can change their legal sex marker without a GRC.

So now I think they should have made it an act of fraud for someone to claim or cause you to believe they have a GRC when they don't, since you can't ask to see it.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:57

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 13:47

Excellent point, I did not know that. I kept thinking I'd misremembered the word. Michael Foran, you say? I shall look on his blog/website to see if I can find the piece you're talking about.

I'll try and find it too but I'm supposed to be working so it might take a while!

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 14:03

Floisme · 22/04/2024 13:57

I'll try and find it too but I'm supposed to be working so it might take a while!

😂 So am I!
I'd really appreciate a link if you did happen to lay your hand on it, as it were. I've done a little search, but fruitlessly.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 14:09

Yes I'll look later and report back. I think it might have been one of his Twitter threads. I'm guessing it was most likely between Dodd's Guardian article in July 2023 and the end of the year.

Obviously it will still be just his legal opinion but it was the first time I'd noticed that there were two distinct words with two distinct meanings and that Dodds appeared to be using only one of them.