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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election

389 replies

IwantToRetire · 19/04/2024 18:41

Why should these women, or any woman, restrain their anger or sweeten their bitterness? Children have been seriously harmed because those same women were ignored — granted not only by Labour politicians, but the women in those parties are right to expect that theirs are the politicians who should most apologise, because they turned a blind eye and a cold shoulder to the left-wing women who still did not desert them for doing so.

I think any request for women to restrain such angry outbursts shows a level of class prejudice and snobbery. Working class women, for example, are often categorised as not being very clever or strategic when they express anger, as though they are too lacking in intelligence to restrain themselves. The suggestion being that spontaneous anger is a limited and limiting response. It is unfair to say women are right to be angry about what has happened but “not that angry” or “not like that.”

Isn’t it the case that incandescent rage splattered over social media gathers the attention of politicians in a way that a privately furrowed brow and a stern letter does not? Likewise, feeling hopeful and grateful at the first sign of political breadcrumbs scattered in the direction of women, is not the same as dragging them into the open and making them apologise and commit to firm and concrete reparation of harms done. Honest righteous anger yields better results sometimes, than quiet, patient strategic waiting, which might not. Some women won’t accept breadcrumbing, until they are sure the Labour loaf won’t be mouldy come the General Election. Permit them their rage.

Part of a much longer article at https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love/

A Labour of unrequited love | Jean Hatchet | The Critic Magazine

For many years now, women have appealed to the Labour Party to try to understand the fundamental clash between women’s rights and the unfair demands of the trans activist movement…

https://thecritic.co.uk/a-labour-of-unrequited-love

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Dineasair · 22/04/2024 14:10

localnotail · 21/04/2024 22:02

IF labour were so fucking awful when they were in power all those years ago why amazing Tories done nothing about it in 13 years they have been in power? I repeat - NOTHING. Zilch. They only made it worse. How do you justify that?

Respect and safety of the vulnerable, particularly for women and children is my priority. This is the bedrock of any decent society, the very foundation that everything else is built on, if you can’t see this then I have nothing to say to you. Labour and the Lib Dem’s are not only allowing women to be oppressed, they are doing the threatening and bullying of women within their own fucking misogynist parties. That Rosie Duffield was advised to not attend a Labour conference due to fears of her actually being physically assaulted by members of the Labour Party is horrific beyond belief, these people are in the British Parliament for fucks sake! They are also actively pushing for harm to children through their support of the trans ideology. Wake up!

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:20

I know "exemption" and "exception" get used interchangeably a lot in discussions on the EA. I'm not 100% sure if there is a real legal difference between them or not.

This EHRC guidance talks only about exceptions.
Guidance published for providers of single-sex services | EHRC (equalityhumanrights.com)

I also read HOL report about the equality act from 2015ish I think that mostly used exception but slipped into exemption a few times seemingly without a clear difference in meaning.

Guidance published for providers of single-sex services | EHRC

A practical guide to the law in relation to single-sex spaces has been published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/guidance-published-providers-single-sex-services#:~:text=Under%20the%20Equality%20Act%2C%20you%20must%20not%20discriminate,limit%20access%20to%20certain%20groups%20in%20certain%20circumstances.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 14:33

Yeah I'm not sure either and I should repeat that I'm no lawyer! But I'm reminded of the lack of clarity that's helped to conflate 'sex' and 'gender'.

Anyway I'll rummage for Foran's input and report back.

HPFA · 22/04/2024 14:39

If you want to vote Tory please just vote Tory!!

You're not entitled to have the Labour Party do whatever you want.

If you don't like its overall offer then just vote for someone else!

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 14:42

HPFA · 22/04/2024 14:39

If you want to vote Tory please just vote Tory!!

You're not entitled to have the Labour Party do whatever you want.

If you don't like its overall offer then just vote for someone else!

Agreed. Do you remember back in 2017 whenever any floating voter would be roundly trounced as a 'centrist dad' and told to 'eff off and vote tory'.

And so in 2019....they did 😂

Mindless tribalists are meaningless. General Elections get won and lost on the floating voter. The cnetrist. The undecided. That's why successful parties discover what matters to those voters and tailor their offer accordingly.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 14:42

HPFA · 22/04/2024 14:39

If you want to vote Tory please just vote Tory!!

You're not entitled to have the Labour Party do whatever you want.

If you don't like its overall offer then just vote for someone else!

I don’t know if you’ve missed what’s going on but we actually do get politicians to change

Self ID, puberty blockers, Cass review, school guidance, males in male prisons

Obviously we’re asking for more change but we’ve done pretty well

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:46

@AdamRyan Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Snowypeaks · 22/04/2024 15:21

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Excellent point, Underthinker.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 22/04/2024 15:23

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:46

@AdamRyan Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Surely it's just as necessary, if not more so, to have security on mixed sex facilities, given that more assaults on women & chlidren happen there than in single sex facilities?

Lion400 · 22/04/2024 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:30

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 14:46

@AdamRyan Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Why do you need security guards for single sex services where you don't need them for single gender identity services?

Because otherwise you are offering the same as now, I.e. TW will use womens spaces. If single sex became law services would need some way of ensuring they were compliant. That has a cost implication.

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:38

There’s no need for security guards it’s not a nightclub with bouncers

Just the new law would be great

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:42

It’s not as if we had guards in 2003 pre GRA

Go back to that

CantDealwithChristmas · 22/04/2024 15:45

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:30

Because otherwise you are offering the same as now, I.e. TW will use womens spaces. If single sex became law services would need some way of ensuring they were compliant. That has a cost implication.

Edited

Now that's just silly.

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 15:55

AdamRyan · 22/04/2024 15:30

Because otherwise you are offering the same as now, I.e. TW will use womens spaces. If single sex became law services would need some way of ensuring they were compliant. That has a cost implication.

Edited

That doesn't seem at all plausible.

You basically believe that TW are a law unto themselves and can't possibly be expected to obey laws on single sex spaces?

I expect like anything you will have a proportion of people who obey the rules and some who break them. But having the rule is still better than not.

GoodOldEmmaNess · 22/04/2024 16:06

Cost of providing truly single sex services is higher and may be prohibitive (security guards, extra changing areas etc)

Surely this is a red herring? No plausible suggested policy has been focused on 'banning' males from women's services. The real issue has always been around clarifying the fact that service providers are permitted to provide single-sex services.
The service providers would just have to do what they have always done - ask people to leave, terminate memberships, whatever. The only difference is that they wouldn't have to fear that they were breaking the law when they did this

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/04/2024 16:07

EasternStandard · 22/04/2024 15:38

There’s no need for security guards it’s not a nightclub with bouncers

Just the new law would be great

Agreed. The law, the social contract and an insistence that people respect this - just as they have done for so long in order to help society to function and women and children to be safe.
It would help if politicians modelled respecting the social contract but looking at the behaviour of some and the silence of their leaders, suspect that's asking too much?

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 16:16

Completely agree @MrsOvertonsWindow . And speaking of modelling behaviour and social contracts. I think we should work towards a place where the
in the single sex spaces where the user is well known to the service provider, such as toilets and changing facilities in schools and workplaces, we normalise the idea there that trans people are perfectly safe and accepted using correct sex spaces. That can in turn filter out into more anonymous single sex spaces such as public toilets. This way the idea that TW would be unsafe in men's toilets would diminish because everyone would be used to them being there.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:05

I think this is the Twixxer thread where Michael Foran makes a distinction between the meaning of single sex exceptions and exemptions in the Equality Act. It's a long thread and I'm aware that not everyone can access Twitter but the post that caught my eye at the time was this (bolding is mine):

'The default is equal treatment unless you’re within the realm of an exception (which apply automatically if the facts meet the legal tests below; exemptions must be actively applied for). If you’re covered by an exception the default is that a single sex service is lawful.'

Whole thread here if you can access it:
https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1741545323837763641

So if this is correct (and I repeat I'm no lawyer), I read it as saying that, of the two, invoking an exemption is more arduous, and can potentially be denied? That strikes me as quite a big distinction and yet I've only seen Anneliese Dodds talk about protecting the exemptions.

Maybe Labour will clarify in their manifesto. I'll be looking out for that and I'll also keep looking for the thread on this board where it was discussed at some length.

I add without comment that neither India Willoughby or Robin Moira White appear to hold Foran in high regard.

I also advise against ever searching for the phrase 'single sex spaces' on Twitter Shock

https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1741545323837763641

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 17:15

I'm also not a lawyer and can't see the thread, so I'm probably going to be incorrectly correcting you, but my [limited] understanding was that there was no applying for exceptions or exemptions. I thought it was just a case of you either provide the service or you don't, and if you choose to exclude a user (based on sex) they either successfully sue you for discrimination or they don't.

Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:27

I'm probably even further out of my depth than you are @Underthinker but Foran seems very clear that exemptions must be applied for.

I'll try and copy or screenshot the whole thread - that may take a while, sorry!

If I had a smidgeon of regard and faith left in Labour I guess I wouldn't be scrutinising them like this but here I am.

I feel like I'm in an acrimonious divorce where you don't believe a word the ex says until the lawyers have checked it. Sad state of affairs.

Underthinker · 22/04/2024 17:31

Thanks @Floisme . I'm no longer on twitter but when I was I followed Foran. He is definitely hugely knowledgeable about the equality act so would definitely take his word over mine :)

IwantToRetire · 22/04/2024 17:35

Sometimes being on FWR is like being trapped in groundhog day.

And I suspect because I am a sloppy typist that I might have confused the issue.

In the EA there are only exceptions ie as I said up thread, the way the GRA interacts with the EA means that "for all purposes" TW with a GRC are "legal women".

That is why the law is baised against actual biological women. We only have rights based on our sex (even though it is a protect charateristic) when we can justify it is "proportional".

Those who have endlessly shown they have no committment or believe in women's sex based rights should be ignored and instead asks why they keep posting on a forum whose purpose they dont believe in and undermine.

And seriously, not sure why some nouveau commentator like Foran should be listened to.

On another thread I did susgest we should have a pinned post somewhere that sets out the SSE so we dont endlessly have to post about it.

If this wasn't the case why do you think so many people, both men and women, think the EA should clarify that the word sex means biological reality.

Seems another example of where the purpose of a thread get lost in a lot of whatabouterry. ie the same people always raising this red herring.

Has anyone got anything relating to any change or refusal to change by the Labour Party?

OP posts:
Floisme · 22/04/2024 17:38

I beg the thread's pardon but if there are only 'exceptions' in the EA then why does Anneliese Dodds keep referring to 'exemptions'?