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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

News commentary on the Cass Report

393 replies

HagoftheNorth · 10/04/2024 07:29

Thread to record where and when to find tv/radio commentary on the Cass report, so that it is easy for people to find it on catchup. If you’re listening/watching and it comes up, please record the channel/show and the time

OP posts:
Thread gallery
65
MondayYogurt · 11/04/2024 09:49

RayonSunrise · 11/04/2024 09:11

Guardian returning to form today, advertising Aiden Kelly's private gender practice in the guise of "helping" troubled children:

www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/11/trans-children-in-england-worse-off-now-than-four-years-ago-says-psychologist

As an old Guardian reader I am still horrified to see them shilling for big Pharma and private medicine over a systemic, careful NHS medical review, but as we've seen repeatedly over the past few years the rot goes very deep.

Surely this level of blatant advertorial should come with a warning? It’s an advert.

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 10:04

MondayYogurt · 11/04/2024 09:49

Surely this level of blatant advertorial should come with a warning? It’s an advert.

This was always going to happen.

NHS Comms are infuriatingly command and control and have a history of underestimating useful scenarios such as how this would play out, be distorted etc. They need to pay a lot more attention to the plausible framing of the story and have their own parent and child dyads, ready to go and to tell their stories.

It's the asinine comms of MMR and Wakefield in a different arena.

OldCrone · 11/04/2024 10:12

This is an old thread about Aidan Kelly from 2020, about a talk he gave in 2018.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3950421-Talk-by-Dr-Aidan-Kelly-Tavistock

The video from the OP seems to have been deleted (they always do this when they get called out saying the quiet bits out loud), but the OP helpfully gave a partial transcript:

“We are putting responsibility back on the family because we don’t have the evidence base to say ‘it’s these kids or it’s these kids’, or how we can pick out which kids should go forward and which kids shouldn’t. “

“The blocker is not a benign thing, it comes with - I don’t mean financial costs- it comes with downsides, especially around energy- if the young person has mood difficulties the blocker can sometimes make that worse- it also takes away those sex hormones, so that whole thing I was talking about, of being attracted to, developing crushes, when all your teens and peers are getting into relationships and developing social connections in that sense- that’ll be gone, well not totally gone, but that drive that interest whether it’s the opposite or same sex or whatever will be greatly reduced. And we do worry, because we don’t have long term evidence for this. We do worry for what impact that might have on their identity because sexuality is such an important part of your identity,who you’re attracted to.”

“It can often mean you are signing up to be a patient for the rest of your life. In a way you taking what is essentially a physically healthy, you know it’s not got medical- you might say internally in terms of gender it’s not right- but medically it’s a healthy body and you’re introducing medication and making it dependent on medication, so ethically it’s really quite a complicated area, especially for children.”

“We’ve only started talking about fertility in the last 4 to 5 years. Before that, we were putting people down this pathway and actually they were coming back to us 15 years later and going, “oh, you never really said, you know.” And that’s what I mean about this being such a new area, CoS we weren’t even doing hypothalamic blockers under the age of 16 until 5 years ago. We don’t have people who are 40 to 50 to see, you know, how’s your life been, were we right to intervene so early? We don’t know.”

TL;DR We don't know what we're doing, we know we're probably harming kids, but we're doing it anyway and we'll blame the parents for allowing it if it all goes wrong.

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/04/2024 10:16

The Cass Report got much more coverage than the WPATH files story did last month but I’m disappointed and frustrated to see certain sectors of the media already framing it as a story about waiting lists instead of covering it as harm done to children by adults who were supposed to be helping them.

Why are so many journalists refusing to realise that they have (and still are) getting it wrong on this issue?!

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 10:19

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/04/2024 10:16

The Cass Report got much more coverage than the WPATH files story did last month but I’m disappointed and frustrated to see certain sectors of the media already framing it as a story about waiting lists instead of covering it as harm done to children by adults who were supposed to be helping them.

Why are so many journalists refusing to realise that they have (and still are) getting it wrong on this issue?!

Coverage played out from the perspective of one side.

There's a dearth of useful analysis although I do attribute some of that to the fact the coverage is largely not from health correspondents who do understand patient safety, trial design, systematic reviews and such.

ScrollingLeaves · 11/04/2024 10:32

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/04/2024 10:16

The Cass Report got much more coverage than the WPATH files story did last month but I’m disappointed and frustrated to see certain sectors of the media already framing it as a story about waiting lists instead of covering it as harm done to children by adults who were supposed to be helping them.

Why are so many journalists refusing to realise that they have (and still are) getting it wrong on this issue?!

From The Tomes article posted here yesterday:
The meaning of “affirmation” became entangled in messages of social justice. “Affirmation then became understood to be a human right and a movement developed around it. People who simply didn’t know about the lack of evidence assumed that any criticism was due to transphobia or lack of support for the kids.”

Also, someone pointed out to me yesterday that the BBC has over 400 transgender employees. I looked it up.
This article was from 2018:
recruitingtimes.org/news/23597/bbc-amazed-after-secret-survey-reveals-that-417-of-its-staff-are-transgender/

FrancescaContini · 11/04/2024 10:55

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/04/2024 10:16

The Cass Report got much more coverage than the WPATH files story did last month but I’m disappointed and frustrated to see certain sectors of the media already framing it as a story about waiting lists instead of covering it as harm done to children by adults who were supposed to be helping them.

Why are so many journalists refusing to realise that they have (and still are) getting it wrong on this issue?!

This is what Ch4 news did yesterday. It was very much focused on the personal frustrations of being on a waiting list for what the teenage girl and her mum saw as too long.

In contrast, the World at One yesterday featured a first-hand account from parents who were taking a much broader view of the issue ie questioning and not affirming, and who were very articulate about how awful their experiences had been.

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 12:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2024 07:26

I'd love to see people like Ritchie Herron and Sinead Watson interviewed on the news.

This is one of the great cognitive dissonances of the desire to have "lived experience" at the heart of health and social care decision-making.

You want people from particular demographics (including socio-economic, those in paid employment, carers etc.) but it seems that you have to edit the way that they speak and express themselves…

The BBC and other media outlets could record and edit video interviews with Ritchie and Sinead if they consider they'd have too many complaints otherwise. Not doing this is a choice and it seems the BBC prefers exclusion.

DisappearingGirl · 11/04/2024 18:58

The Guardian actually has some really good articles on the Cass review, alongside the dodgy ones.

I particularly like this one which gives a summary of the scientific evidence:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/gender-medicine-built-on-shaky-foundations-cass-review-finds

Also this one which covers the move to a more holistic, less medical model, but the problems with waiting times for mental health support:
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/review-of-nhs-gender-services-for-children-has-major-implications-for-mental-health-services

And this one about possible reasons for the huge rise in teenage girls seeking treatment:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/what-cass-review-says-about-surge-in-children-seeking-gender-services

And one quoting Cass on the toxicity of the debate and the failures in the system:
www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/children-are-being-used-as-a-football-hilary-cass-on-her-review-of-gender-identity-services

Also this one about adult services and the refusal to share data on patients who have been treated:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/adult-transgender-clinics-in-england-face-inquiry-into-patient-care

Gender medicine ‘built on shaky foundations’, Cass review finds

Analysis finds most research underpinning clinical guidelines, hormone treatments and puberty blockers to be low quality

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/gender-medicine-built-on-shaky-foundations-cass-review-finds

DisappearingGirl · 11/04/2024 19:01

The last Guardian one is pretty shocking:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/adult-transgender-clinics-in-england-face-inquiry-into-patient-careN

"NHS England also intends to force adult gender dysphoria clinics to hand over data which they refused to share with University of York researchers whom Cass had asked to obtain to help draw up best practice guidelines for how the NHS should help such vulnerable young people.

It will outline the health outcomes seen among the 9,000 people who as under-18s were cared for by the gender identity development service at the Tavistock and Portman NHS mental health trust.

Six of the seven trusts did not cooperate, prompting Cass to complain in her report that a potentially world-leading research project had been “thwarted” by NHS secrecy.

Wes Streeting, the shadow health secretary, said he was “pretty angry” to learn about the blocking tactics. “Under a Labour government there will be accountability for that – you’re not going to get away with it,” he said.

In the same letter NHS England made clear to the trusts that if they do not disclose the details, they will resort to “mandatory direction in this respect” to compel them to do so."

Adult transgender clinics in England face inquiry into patient care

NHS England to review seven specialist services after staff share misgivings privately

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/adult-transgender-clinics-in-england-face-inquiry-into-patient-care

RethinkingLife · 11/04/2024 19:48

In the same letter NHS England made clear to the trusts that if they do not disclose the details, they will resort to “mandatory direction in this respect” to compel them to do so."

This will be interesting.

The ICO was a party to a legal action to compel QMUL to release data about the PACE studies. QMUL spent substantial sums to fight this.

https://citizen-network.org/news/major-breakthrough-on-pace-trial

Unions for those who work in the NHS haven't been forthcoming to protect GC workers but it will be interesting to see union responses in re: their members if they're compelled to release the records.

Major breakthrough on PACE trial

There's been a major breakthrough on PACE trial as the courts force Queen Mary University of London to release data from questionable research.

https://citizen-network.org/news/major-breakthrough-on-pace-trial

Mycatsmudge · 11/04/2024 20:00

Two fascinating interviews the first is the BMJ interview with Hilary Cass and explains the most salient points of her review

the second is an interview with the former BBC reporter Hannah Barnes (it’s approx 42 minutes into the video) who reports the GIDs clinic did collect data but even when it showed the medical treatment was either ineffective and in some cases harmful the clinicians still carried on giving it to the young people

Gender identity services in England - The Cass review

“Medication is binary, but gender expressions are often not”Hilary Cass has chaired the Independent Review into Gender Identity Services for Children and You...

https://youtu.be/gNTkEoSAaKI?si=itukumN3bOYWzVBO

NecessaryScene · 11/04/2024 20:12

The video from the OP seems to have been deleted (they always do this when they get called out saying the quiet bits out loud),

Glinner put a copy up on his channel:

KellieJaysLapdog · 11/04/2024 20:56

Absolutely bonkers that NHS England are funding all the adult GICs yet the GICs think they don’t have to comply with a review commissioned by NHS England.

Appalonia · 11/04/2024 21:08

Hard to believe anything the Guardian says after years of both lying, Gaslighting or ignoring this issue for years tbh...
( unless it's The Observer on Sunday )

Mycatsmudge · 12/04/2024 11:58

KellieJaysLapdog absolutely I think we also need to know who commissioned and signed off the funding for theses GIDS clinics, their KPIs and oversight provided. A few years ago I got one years funding for a new position in my team and we had to meet with our commissioners every month show them the data we collected and evidence we were meeting out KPIs. This case has deeply damaged my trust and belief in the NHS even though I have worked for them for decades as I personally know dcs who have been through the GIDs clinic. I think when the NHS comes out with its begging bowl claiming they are underfunded people will think well why on earth are they funding unevidenced dangerous expensive treatments for very vulnerable children and young people and there will very little sympathy and probably a lot of anger

HagoftheNorth · 12/04/2024 12:12

Some guy on the Adrian Chiles show R5 around 11.45 today. He is spouting such ill informed, unevidenced criticism of the Cass report. Woman being interviewed alongside was v measured, kept going back to what the report actually said, but could hardly get a word in edgeways against the frenetic torrent.

This stuff really needs to be properly fact checked - atm, interviewees can pretty much say anything, and interviewers are largely not sufficiently well informed on the breadth of the debate to spot the huge errors!

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 12/04/2024 12:25

HagoftheNorth · 12/04/2024 12:12

Some guy on the Adrian Chiles show R5 around 11.45 today. He is spouting such ill informed, unevidenced criticism of the Cass report. Woman being interviewed alongside was v measured, kept going back to what the report actually said, but could hardly get a word in edgeways against the frenetic torrent.

This stuff really needs to be properly fact checked - atm, interviewees can pretty much say anything, and interviewers are largely not sufficiently well informed on the breadth of the debate to spot the huge errors!

2009, Jay Rosen wrote: My Simple Fix for the Messed Up Sunday Shows

This post keeps disappearing so I'm reproducing part here because I often think that people should be prepared to provide citations after every interview.

Avoid hyper-polarisation Fact-checking & accountability: elegant solution for fixing political television…

Look, the Sunday morning talk shows are broken. As works of journalism they don’t work. And I don’t know why this is so hard for the producers to figure out.

The people who host and supervise these shows, the journalists who appear on them, as well as the politicians who are interviewed each week, are all quite aware that extreme polarization and hyper-partisan conflict have come to characterize official Washington, an observation repeated hundreds of times a month by elders in the Church of the Savvy. Ron Brownstein wrote a whole book on it: The Second Civil War: How Extreme Partisanship Has Paralyzed Washington and Polarized America

If the observation is true, then inviting partisans on television to polarize us some more would seem to be an obvious loser, especially because the limited airtime compresses political speech and guarantees a struggle for the microphone. This pattern tends to strand viewers in the senseless middle. We either don’t know whom to believe, and feel helpless. Or we curse both sides for their distortions. Or we know enough to know who is misleading us more and wonder why the host doesn’t. I can think of no scenario in which Brownstein can be correct and the Sunday shows won’t suck. (Can you?)

It’s remarkable to me how unaware someone like David Gregory appears to be about all this. He acts as if lending stage to extreme partisanship, and then “confronting” each side with one or two facts it would prefer to forget, is a perfectly fine solution. But then he also acts like his pathetic denialism about the adequacy of press performance as Bush made his case for war is sustainable, normal, rational. (“I think the questions were asked. I think we pushed. I think we prodded. I think we challenged the president.”) Maybe he thinks we buy that. Or forgive him. Or something….

Well, Gregory is a special case. But in fact the whole Sunday format has to be re-thought, or junked so the news divisions can start over with a new premise. Of course the problem is that the people who would have to make that decision are the same people whose entire knowledge base and skill set lies in producing the “old” style of political television. That is what they know, so that is what they continue to do. I guess it’s not hard to understand complacency of this kind. But do they really think we don’t notice the growing absurdity of bringing to a common table people who agree on nothing?

I think the situation calls for cynicism. But I have to admit that is not much of a call. So instead I propose this modest little fix, first floated on Twitter in a post I sent out to Betsy Fischer, Executive Producer of Meet the Press, who never replies to anything I say. “Sadly, you’re a one-way medium,” I said to Fischer, “but here’s an idea for ya: Fact check what your guests say on Sunday and run it online Wednesday.”

Now I don’t contend this would solve the problem of the Sunday shows, which is structural. But it might change the dynamic a little bit. Whoever was misleading us more could expect to hear about it from Meet the Press staff on Wednesday. The midweek fact check (in the spirit of Politifact.com, which could even be hired for the job…) might, over time, exert some influence on the speakers on Sunday. At the very least, it would guide the producers in their decisions about whom to invite back.

The midweek fact check would also give David Gregory a way out of his puppy game of gotcha. Instead of telling David Axelrod that his boss promised to change the tone in Washington so why aren’t there any Republican votes for health care? … which he thinks is getting “tough” with a guest, Gregory’s job would simply be to ask the sort of questions, the answers to which could be fact checked later in the week. Easy, right?

The beauty of this idea is that it turns the biggest weakness of political television–the fact that time is expensive, and so complicated distortions, or simple distortions about complicated matters, are rational tactics for advantage-seeking pols—into a kind of strength. The format beckons them to evade, deny, elide, demagogue and confuse…. but then they pay for it later if they give into temptation and make that choice. So imagine the midweek fact check from last week as a short segment wrapping up the show the following week. Now you have an incentive system that’s at least pointed in the right direction.

As I said, the situation calls for cynicism, which is the real product of the Sunday shows. But simply because nothing will be done, we shouldn’t pretend that nothing can be done. That would be cynicism taken to an unwarranted extreme.

Soon, This Week with George Stephanopoulos on ABC will get a new host, which is likely to be White House correspondent Jake Tapper. He could institute the midweek fact check in a stroke. And he has the ego to think he could pull it off. Stroke, ego– hey, maybe we got something here. How ’bout it, Jake?

https://publicnotebook.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/my-simple-fix-for-the-messed-up-sunday-shows/

FullFact used to do something like this for PMQ etc. and were successful in managing to stop some zombie assertions.

We're long past the point where we need this. I realise that as humans we prefer simple, emotional stories. We're seeing the harms of that writ very large.

My Simple Fix for the Messed Up Sunday Shows

Look, the Sunday morning talk shows are broken. As works of journalism they don’t work. And I don’t know why this is so hard for the producers to figure out. The people who host and sup…

https://publicnotebook.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/my-simple-fix-for-the-messed-up-sunday-shows

HagoftheNorth · 12/04/2024 13:14

Thankyou RethinkingLife. That is one of those posts which make a point so obvious, I wonder why I hadn’t thought of it before. Why aren’t the producers of any news/current affairs programmes routinely required to do this?

Lots of programmes have websites already, it would be really straightforward to send a (computer generated) transcript to guests, who are required to provide supporting evidence. Evidence, or the lack of it, is published, so people can draw their own conclusions.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 12/04/2024 13:33

HagoftheNorth · 12/04/2024 12:12

Some guy on the Adrian Chiles show R5 around 11.45 today. He is spouting such ill informed, unevidenced criticism of the Cass report. Woman being interviewed alongside was v measured, kept going back to what the report actually said, but could hardly get a word in edgeways against the frenetic torrent.

This stuff really needs to be properly fact checked - atm, interviewees can pretty much say anything, and interviewers are largely not sufficiently well informed on the breadth of the debate to spot the huge errors!

Adrian Chiles is I believe married to Kath Viner of Guardian comic fame.
The BBC have a lot invested in discrediting Cass having been a major influence in selling the joys of changing sex to even the youngest of children. The Guardian is perhaps beginning to recognise that they picked the wrong side when ignoring this medical scandal involving children so also have a lot invested in rubbishing Cass.

That may go some way to explaining why Chiles (who I believe still writes for the Guardian?) wouldn't bother about challenging more open lies about Cass?

CriticalCondition · 12/04/2024 13:58

He also used to be married to Jane Garvey who spent years at Woman's Hour with her fingers in her ears singing 'LA LA LA' on this topic.

There was some suggestion, (which may have come from Garvey herself on her podcast, cant remember) that she didn't want to go there because of her young adult daughters.

Maybe that's the context for the reluctance from Chiles too?

Legacy · 12/04/2024 14:29

CriticalCondition · 12/04/2024 13:58

He also used to be married to Jane Garvey who spent years at Woman's Hour with her fingers in her ears singing 'LA LA LA' on this topic.

There was some suggestion, (which may have come from Garvey herself on her podcast, cant remember) that she didn't want to go there because of her young adult daughters.

Maybe that's the context for the reluctance from Chiles too?

Edited

Yes, Jane Garvey said she was limited in what she could say by the BBC's various policies, but also that she was attempting to keep the peace with her then teenage daughters.

Let's not forget that as a divorced single mum at that point she was probably also careful about not losing her job!

She is slightly more outspoken now she and Fi Glover have moved to Times Radio, but Fi Glover is so drunk on the KoolAid she makes me want to vomit when I hear her talk about anything gender-related. I do wish JG would be more assertive with her!

GreenUp · 12/04/2024 14:42

HagoftheNorth · 12/04/2024 12:12

Some guy on the Adrian Chiles show R5 around 11.45 today. He is spouting such ill informed, unevidenced criticism of the Cass report. Woman being interviewed alongside was v measured, kept going back to what the report actually said, but could hardly get a word in edgeways against the frenetic torrent.

This stuff really needs to be properly fact checked - atm, interviewees can pretty much say anything, and interviewers are largely not sufficiently well informed on the breadth of the debate to spot the huge errors!

This "Some guy" description made me laugh so much. The "some guy" is Owen Jones spouting his usual bollocks.

I don't want to give some guy's podcast publicity but he did interviews yesterdy with Dr Aidan Kelly and Freddie McConnell yesterday slagging off the Cass Review

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5JTkVVZqts648k95f4eLgB?si=lRguCt6pRzyMB9IhSZA2sg

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