Older generations show resistance to trans rights

[Inauthentic]

"Millennials and Gen Z tend to be overwhelmingly supportive of trans people, having grown up in a more inclusive environment, while older generations show far more resistance to trans rights, likely intimidated by the speed of social change."

Is this your experience?
There appears to be an overwhelming support for gender critical beliefs on Mumsnet.
Is it because it's mainly older generations engaging in this debate?

How old are you and what are your views?

I am 45yo and I mostly support trans rights (with the exception of trans athletes competing in woman's events and I agree puberty blockers is a grey area)

Are you from France? If so, how do you see the situation there?

Thank you. Unsurprisingly there's been radio silence from the people who calim to support trans rights, or that they aren't threatened by trans people and therefore it's all fine.

FWIW I also have trans friends. MtF, FtM and NB. I don't feel threatened by any of those people. But then, I don't feel threatened by any of my male friends either. That doesn't mean all males/transwomen are safe.

You get males like Jessica Yaniv in beauticians who then take out multiple law suits against the women beauticians that refuse to be coerced into waxing their male genitalia though.

“In sports I think transwomen can have an unfair advantage due to their physical size etc but I say it is a grey area because I believe it’s equally not fair for them to compete in mens events when their hormone levels would put them at a disadvantage - maybe there should be a non gendered event everyone can enter alongside the women’s event? Again not an expert.”

And yet, there are plenty of experts out there to read and listen to. I posted a large post full of links. Why not go and read?

Let’s try to logic this out.

You say ‘it is unfair because they have had treatment’. Can you name one other treatment which limits performance that allows someone to enter an able bodied sports category meant for another protected characteristic to allow the athletes in that characteristic to have fair competition ? Any? Any performance limiting treatment at all?

Why do you feel this group deserves to enter the female category as some kind of consolation prize for choosing to transition?

Why shouldn’t they do what all the other male athletes who have to seek performance limiting treatment do, continue to do the sport they want to with reduced performance?

Of course, there are male athletes out there who have lost their ability to produce testosterone due to injury or disease. Should THEY be allowed to compete as a woman?

I asked before about whether you would agree with the following breaches of regulations and if you don’t, why continue to advocate that males should be in female sports.

Should a sighted person compete with blind athletes if they identify as blind?

Should a 25 year old compete in the under 14’s if they identify as a child?

Should a 25 year old compete in the over 85 year old Masters category if they identify as 86 years old?

Should a professional athlete compete as a novice?

Should an athlete born in the UK with parents who are born in the UK with all the advantages of sports access and still living in the UK, compete in a sport representing Samoa and exclude a Samoan person?

no? Why should males get special treatment.

And there are already mixed sex events in many sports. They are there ready to be joined. Why are those male people not in those teams and events?

And a special event was added to an international swim meet just for any tran person (including female people on testosterone if I remember correctly). No one entered.

I think you aspire to be kind. But categorising discussion about these issues as hateful is not fucking kind.

What is your solution to that?

And this is one of the problems with insisting that TWAW and using 'courtesy pronouns' - it allows a group of male bodied people to say 'but that rule doesn't apply to me'. Some of them genuinely seem to believe that it doesn't.

“It is an angry mob that hates anyone different, anyone they can’t understand.”

Having had to face angry, literally screaming, stereo blasting, fog horn blowing protestors to attend a women’s event where women talked about their concerns and experiences. Having to form a line of hands to provide an additional barrier for the police to better know when one of those protestors a metre away had broken through.

I can tell you very clearly who the angry mob is. And it isn’t the women discussing how to come up with equitable solutions or to protect women and children.

It was the very angry and hugely intolerant and uninformed young people that were literally screaming in my ear. Screaming the most ridiculous accusations that had no truth in them. They had simply read the misinformation being spread and figured what the fuck, that will tell those hateful bigots to die.

Meanwhile women were discussing their needs as rape victims, as disabled women who were being let down just in getting treatment, as mothers wanting their girls to have a better life away from abuse.

Women discussing their needs are not hateful. But those who use emotionally manipulative tactics to shame them from speaking up… that is hateful and misogynistic.

Allow beauticians to say ‘no thank you.’ It is not that hard to be honest.

In sports I think transwomen can have an unfair advantage due to their physical size etc but I say it is a grey area because I believe it’s equally not fair for them to compete in mens events when their hormone levels would put them at a disadvantage - maybe there should be a non gendered event everyone can enter alongside the women’s event? Again not an expert

I'm not an expert either but I know that males are physically advantaged and it's no gray area! Just because someone demands something, do you give it to them?

So a non gendered event has demonstrably shown that it gets dominated by males so it's actually another male event, not an alternative women's event. However I'm in favour of this as at least it leaves women's categories unfettered. If fairness matters to you, I wonder why is there ambiguity in the sports world?

If you ever want to see male and female power differences, just watch an episode of Gladiators. The difference between the female gladiators and the male gladiators is more obvious than the roundness of the earth. It's right in front of you.

What's your solution to some men taking the piss and using women to get off on eg all the many, many videos out there of TIMs filming themsleves wanking in a skirt in a female bathroom with unsuspecting women in shot behind them? Whats your proposal as to how we seperate those TW from the genuine ones who 'just want to pee'?

In the UK, service providers should apply the exceptions in the EA2010 without fear of being accused of transphobia.

Wouldn't you agree?

How are you straight if you’re having/ have had same sex relationships?
Or is ‘straight’ just another one of those fluid terms, just like ‘woman’ seems to be in your opinion?

Man whacks his dick out for a wax when thats not a service offered? Yes, that applies.

A man using a beauticians service? No.

Sports people have to forgo treatment for all sorts of illnesses because the treatment would result in a positive drugs test. So why should taking medication for something we are told time and time again isn't a medical condition be rewarded with access to the category of your choice while treating an actual illness can land you a lengthy ban?

I'm not sure whether making a beauty salon female only would meet the threshold in the Equality Act, tbh.

But I do think that beauticians should be free to refuse to wax someone's intimate parts without having to justify their decision.

There are female only gyms....

Sometimes an audience of one in close quarters is enough 'validation' for a TW. A few years ago when Jessica Yanniv was suing beauticians for not waxing his balls I was chatting with the lovely woman who does my annual pedicure. She works alone in a treatment room at her home on the edge of a small village. She said she'd been asked for an appointment by the local poundshop Grayson Perry type. He's a creepy middle aged man who favours 'little girl' dresses. She found her diary was very full and she wasn't taking on new clients.

Women are entitled to protect themselves.

For services where there is intimate physical contact between the beautician and the customer then you can make it single sex.

For services like nails or make up, probably not.

Because some people choose to believe activists over scientists and doctors and experts.

Because there has been a concerted effort by lobby groups to deliver misinformation and falsehoods based on philosophical belief (because there is absolutely no scientific basis that has been found to be true) that convinced some people who wish to be considered kind. And those people then repeat that trope to others who then continue to repeat it.

Because some people trust lobby groups so much that they cannot then critically evaluate what they have been told. To be fair, many lobby groups and support groups discourage people seeking original source information as we keep seeing in the regurgitation of biased flawed interpretations that activists publish. Like that Canadian paper about sport. People trust those activists because... why would they be lying? (and I recommend any reader to go back a couple of pages and read the Dentons report and the Trans Law centre communication document).

The thing is, once you see the dishonesty and the fuckwittery, you cannot again unsee it.

Theres no intimate contact at the female only gym I go to.

I don't beleive there's any intimate touching happening at male only Rotarty Clubs and Masons groups but who knows?! I would no longer be surprised knowing what I now know about male sexuality.

I think there is more hope for the future than we think. x.com/peskygenz/status/1776983454929891408?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

Sorry I am talking about fellas who have had no treatment, wear a frock & use the woman’s loos/ changing rooms,I don’t agree with that or woman who decide to become male using the men’s loos/ changing rooms

So when you see a "fella in a frock" using the ladies' loos, how do you know whether they have had any treatment or not?

You absolutely do what?

She is brilliant.

And I hope that the OP and others take note that they really shouldn't make generalisations about young people. Take the number of posters on this very thread who have stated very clearly that they cannot speak truthfully about their opinions in real life.

I know a few young women in that situation as well. There is nothing 'tolerant' about a generation that feel that they cannot express their well considered opinions out of fear.

I really don't know why some posters persist in framing that situation as anything to be celebrated as a trait of a generation. But there you have it.

If you have read this thread and wondered about what the fuck is going on, this thread is well worth reading. It starts off in general discussion but has become an archive site for links to studies, papers, articles and government publications.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0