PCS - civil service union - and Unite - protest against women's rights event in Edinburgh

[ArabellaScott]

Images from Susan Dalgety.

The event was of course 'Let Women Speak' at the mound.

Why were PCOS and Unite protesting against it?

https://twitter.com/DalgetySusan/status/1776588747368177981/photo/1

The unions (hopefully) are enough of a threat to massively reduce the risk of outright discrimination against women; if it happens the union will support class actions and other legal responses

So women who have their privacy, safety and dignity put at risk in the workplace when men are allowed to share their changing rooms and toilets, will be supported by these particular unions? Will they also support lesbians who receive abuse about their sexuality or will they support men instead?

" Burning it down" sounds like enemy action rather than engaged discussion. The reason you get so much resistance and come-back is because you set up that type of dynamic yourself.

They don't care. When you leave a Union, they email you to ask why. They don't care or act upon any response. At best, you'll get a 'well, you've left now...' shrug.

Women are not leaving unions because they are not GC enough, they are leaving because the unions are not supporting women's rights and if the behaviour in Edinburgh is indicative , they are also no friend to the gay community.

I do love being lectured on the trade union movement by someone who admits selling their soul for ££ and won't join a union themselves.

As a public servant with a partner working in the NHS I'll take no lectures from you.

You keep posting in this "echo chamber" because you like to counter the views expressed. Your adversarial approach therefore tends to bring out and creates its own opposition. The sort of dynamic is surely what you are seeking? Why else do you continue to swim against the tide?

You are not seeking agreement - you are seeking challenge, so that is what you get.

They don't care. When you leave a Union, they email you to ask why. They don't care or act upon any response. At best, you'll get a 'well, you've left now...' shrug.

I'm not surprised @Waitwhat23 but apparently they will be receptive to being challenged from the inside, hmm.

Adam I work at a university and was in the UCU for around 20 years. I'm certainly not someone who requires everyone to have the same views as me. Many of my lovely intelligent colleagues have pronouns on their emails and I think that's completely up to them. I am more than happy to respect people's preferred names, pronouns etc. However I left the UCU last year because:

i) They weren't just "not GC enough" (that would be fine), they actively spoke out against Kathleen Stock when she was bullied out for her GC beliefs. They have written posts such as this one which indicates they not only support trans rights (fine) but also are pro-self ID (not fine with me). I'm a hard working and respectful employee but the one thing I can imagine getting into trouble at work for would be if I expressed my GC beliefs and someone objected. I felt my union would not support me if this happened.

ii) I feel that their strike action in recent years has gone way over the top. I really appreciate them fighting for fair pay and pensions for us. But it used to be perhaps a couple of strike days per year if there was a pay dispute going on, then both sides would come to an agreement. Recently it's been weeks and weeks of strikes whilst refusing to give an inch. Then most recently they achieved a fantastic agreement on pensions which had been rumbling on for years, but instead of pausing and taking stock, they immediately went ahead with a marking and assessment boycott (one of the most damaging types of strike action for students, and a big ask of members) to cover the other ongoing non-urgent gripes. I thought this was wrong.

iii) In regards to changing things from the inside, it's a lovely thought, but in reality I don't have time or energy to be a union rep. I have an incredibly busy job plus young children and elderly parents. And if I did have time, imagine trying to persuade the UCU or any of these unions to a more centrist position on trans issues. You'd be attacked and vilified.

That's just my union experience.

Here's an article on Kathleen Stock and the UCU

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/oct/12/professor-says-career-effectively-ended-by-unions-transphobia-claims

Thank you 😊
Have you joined another union or left altogether? Do you think the UCU will change approach if enough people leave?

Kathleen Stock had a terrible time. I think the women like her are heroes as they've pushed for legal clarity which means we are all much safer now. But I bet at quite some personal cost to herself

Yes. I like challenge. I think it helps sharpen arguments and bring new perspectives.
It is perfectly possible to challenge and even be adversarial without being rude or attacking people.

I know lots of people don't like the challenge however

😂
Mn don't delete "criticism". They delete personal attacks. I'm here because I'm fine with criticism.

I left altogether. Not sure which other union would be appropriate - perhaps I should look into it.

No idea re unions changing approach. Sadly I think they attract people who are quite fixed in their left wing beliefs (often a good thing as those people are often passionate and principled, but not much room for nuance). So I'm not holding out much hope of change.

Agree re Kathleen Stock.

I'm quite happy to challenge you. In fact I enjoy it. I like to play devil's advocate. But as soon as people do challenge you, you tend return to the over-used and predictable insinuations, cliches and tropes about 'right wing' Tories etc

You're not critically thinking. You're just taking cheap shots in order to infer something about the women on this board, and we can all see that. You know people can read all all the posts in this thread and see how inaccurate your little summary is, right?

If unions are actively picketing women's rights meetings, and aggressively demonstrating against feminists, I'd say that's going further than just 'not supporting women's rights'. Looks like actively working against women's interests.

I'll be interested to hear whether any of them make any public statements about their attendance yesterday.

I very much hope none of them were involved in the homophobic protests, also. That was a particularly unsavoury part of the protest yesterday, but I would expect any serious organisation would want to distance themselves from a 'dykes love girl d*s' sign.

Spot on.

That might be your view. I too see you repeatedly making points I disagree with and insinuations about lefties, bad faith, anti Christian etc.

Like everyone, I have some core values and beliefs that are likely to be expressed in debate. Those aren't "cliches". Those are part of being human.

I think the protection of a Union is a bit like insurance- worth it should you find yourself in a position where you need it. Hope that doesn't sound patronising

AdamRyan · Today 13:30

I can just imagine my colleagues suggesting we joined a union! I work in very white collar roles. It's not really the done thing, in fact many people hate the whole idea.

https://members.prospect.org.uk/

They aren't all for the horny handed.

derek Ah I see the problem with my strawman. My first sentence was actually frustration at this reply.
AdamRyan is once again trying to suggest that being 'right wing' is the reason that there are so many criticisms of unions. What Adam fails to understand, no matter how many times they've had it explained, is that many of us used to be in the Labour Party

Flipping rude.

But I understand without quoting the reply my strawman reply looks pretty randomly aggressive.

Exactly this.

The Unions aren't renowned for supporting women's rights in the first place.

I'd personally be loathed to join a union or to be a member of a union which would put the rights of males above the dignity of women to have single sex spaces in work.

If I have problems at work it would be easier to look for support from an organisation like ACAS. Having worked opposite unions as a employment lawyer they are not ALWAYS completely on the side of the employee in any event. Support is always on their terms.

There are cases whether they refuse to support employees, even after sub payments are consistently made, and claims by employees against their union are not unheard of. I've been involved in a few.

But on the point of this thread. It is disappointing but unsurprising that they are now overtly anti woman.

Unions are acting in a very undemocratic way if they're trying to silence women and they're not reflecting their members views. Just the views of the privileged, entitled and already powerful. Some people will be able to getbi to leadership positions. Others don't have the ability, time or motivation and it's not OK to tell people how else they can express their dissatisfaction with the ways in which men's privileges are protected.

I've been a public servant and my partner works in the civil service. So what?

I would be in a union now, except there is not much point as I'd be on my own in my org. I can get about the same level of support by paying for insurance.

You almost sound like you are purity spiralling.