Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread

[WarriorN]

First item is the Hate bill and JK's tweets - they did invite her on but haven't heard back yet

For women Scotland will be on too.

As Susan from FWS put it, they’re promising “jam tomorrow”. In the interim, why aren’t women protected under this supposedly important hate bill today? It’s almost like (1) women are seen as lesser beings, and (2) there is a conflict between giving into the TRAs and protecting women. As we have been pointing out for years.

I wonder if there's been a board from meeting about this - free rein; go!

She didn't just say "trans women are men."

She created a list of trans women who had either committed crimes or indulged in behaviour she didn't like. Of course, she didn't actually come out and say what she was implying about the entire group. That would be too on the nose even for her. She was suggesting that these trans women should not be protected - should be excepted from hate crime legislation - and by inference, that no transgender people should. You can do exactly the same thing with disabled people, gay people and black people.

That's what "It never happens threads" are for and it's why white nationalists publish lists of black criminals. Why do you think white nationalists do this?

Mr Academic also said that the speech needs to be threatening and abusive. That's not what the Act says, it says "communicates to another person material that a reasonable person would consider to be threatening, abusive or insulting".

If you're going to hold yourself up as a legal expert, you're best knowing your topic in depth.

Imagine suggesting that male offenders shouldn’t be in female prisons. The cheek of that JKR!

Yes, I was interested to see “insulting” being left off, since it’s a lower bar.

Police: Having read JKR's tweets, if you compare your mental state between now and beforehand, has your fear and/or alarm increased?

Victim: My fear and alarm have increased.

"Of course, she didn't actually come out and say ..."

The standard formula for people who want to condemn JKR: acknowledging that she hasn't actually said anything hateful as a way of claiming that her hateful expressions are somehow magically located in what she hasn't said.

Of course, dadjoke didn't actually come out and say that people can't express legitimate concerns that others are capable of misrepresenting as bigotry. That would be too on the nose even for him. To coin a phrase.

She created a list of trans women who had either committed crimes or indulged in behaviour she didn't like

There's a switch. What kind of "behaviour"? Behaviour like taking a girl's place on a football team? Like taking a woman's place in a rape crisis centre, having an open and bizarre fixation on women having orgasms when being raped and then calling rape victims bigoted? Maybe behaviour like encouraging children to get in touch by DM or calling all white people racist?

Well, unless they actually define a woman as being an "adult human female", then I can see the first complaint being made by a transwoman against a woman.

Also @DadJoke, I'm not sure you're aware of this, but trans women aren't the equivalent of black and gay people in your analogy.

When black people weren't allowed to use the same public toilets as white people in parts of the US in the 1960s, for example, the black people were the oppressed group being excluded from public spaces by the group of oppressors for reasons which had nothing to do with safety, dignity or privacy.

We don't have single sex toilets for men and women in order to oppress men by treating them as lesser humans. We have single sex toilets in order to protect female people (the oppressed group) from male people (the group of oppressors), as well as for the dignity and privacy of both sexes.

By allowing male people into single sex spaces for female people on the basis that some of them believe they are not like other male people, you are removing that protection from female people, who are the actual oppressed group here.

If you believe that women aren't an oppressed group and that single sex spaces are merely evidence of bigotry towards members of the male sex, logically you should be campaigning for the abolition of all single sex spaces. But you aren't doing that, and neither are trans rights lobby groups. Indeed, they insist that trans women must be segregated from men.

If you believe that women and trans people are both oppressed groups, logically you should be campaigning for both those oppressed groups to have their own dedicated spaces (i.e. single sex spaces for women and additional spaces for trans people). But you aren't doing that either.

Protected from what? Being called a man?
That's pretty much it really, that's all she's saying. We should be able to call a male adult human a man without fear of police action.

Its absolutely ridiculous that this even needs pointing out.

Eh up.

@DadJoke is at it again.

The behaviour she doesn't like is male people being in spaces and competing in sports which are for female people.

Nowhere in her tweet does she suggest that all trans people do this.

The point is that if you make referring to someone's biological sex a hate crime if they are offended by it, you remove women's rights to say, "These people should not be in our spaces or sports because they do not meet the relevant criterion, which is being female."

The individuals she mentioned are examples of why women need to be able to say that these people should not be in women's spaces without being accused of bigotry, or worse still, a hate crime.

I suppose he must just like the attention he gets when he posts such clumsy arguments. Reminds me of the time when my son (only about 10 at the time so somewhat excusable) shoved his head down towards a wasp nest amongst tree roots in a wood and bellowed at them. What larks for him. He was a faster runner than me, so I was the one that got stung. Similarly, the women on this thread are in pain about the hideous distortions in the discussions around trans rights. Not sure that it is more than larks for Dadjoke.

Always wondered what DadJoke is trying to do here.

I'm assuming there's a trans person either in the mirror or in their family, but the dogged insistence on dogmas, refusal to address any questions at all and scolding of women who maintain boundaries (very unkind of them) achieves precisely fuck all, I would think.

Or she's pointing out the level of cognitive dissonance that's required when you protect men's interests (including trans women) over women's (i.e. biological females).

I scroll past stuff like this - it's so last year.

I have two questions about trans people that confuse me a little, the first is a serious question, the second - not so.
Why is it always "the body that's wrong" and never the brain?
What ever happened to the sage advice "listen to your body"?

"These people" - do you mean literally, "these people" or all trans women? The answer to this will confirm or deny the validity of my position.

It's the visual equivalent of white noise for me.

@DadJoke Can I just confirm your understanding of something?

Do you understand that "trans women are women" means that ALL of the individuals JK Rowling has referred to here can use women's toilets, changing rooms, communal showers, rape crisis groups, hospital wards, domestic violence shelters etc (including the ones who have committed rape and murder)?

The only ones who can't do these things freely are the ones who are currently in prison, possibly a women's prison.

It's not though, is is? She didn't say "I think trans women are men - arrest me." She listed people she doesn't like with the protected characteristic. Why do you think she did that? If she opposed the hate crime bill and listed black people who committed crimes, what would you infer?

She listed people who are male and access women's single sex spaces.

She did this to show why letting male people access women's single sex spaces is harmful to women.

HTH.

You've conflated "gender critical people" with women. Women are an oppressed group. Gender critical people are not. Women are not oppressed by transgender people.