They / them at work

[pootlefump]

I've just written a long post and it's disappeared so in brief - how do you deal with staff who are they/them at work? I will really struggle to call a very obvious biological male 'they'. I also can't loose my job and do want to be respectful but also can't change my view on this nonsense !

I wouldn’t lie.

I wouldn’t pander to the delusions of a person with anorexia who insists s/he is fat, either.

My issue with forcing gender pretence compliance is that it is not policing what you say to the person in question, but insisting that your language is policed out of their presence. Like that person is able to control your speech away from them.

Imagine I'm talking to Betty. Betty has a cock and balls but wears womanface. Betty insists I call him she and her. But WHEN do I refer to Betty as her so as not to be rude to him?

"Goodmorning Betty. How are 'her'?"

"Betty, would 'she' like a cup of tea?"

"Betty, did her complete the project she were working on?"

It makes no sense in language.

When speaking to a person you use non specific gendered language. "How are you? Would you like a cup of tea. Have you completed the project you were working on?"

You can call yourself whatever name you like and I'll comply because a name is something chosen and it doesn't matter if it's you or your parents who chose it. Sex is observed though. I am happy to use preferred pronouns to your face, which isn't actually a thing you can do, but I will not be made to play silly games when speaking about them.

We've got a load of she/theys and he/theys at work. Why are they even bothering? No one is going to go out of their way to use 'they'. It's so embarrassing. They should just wear a T-shirt with 'I'm trying to be interesting' on it and be done with it.

You’ve missed my point. I don not believe that people can change sex. I therefore only use sex based pronouns. If someone else tries to compel me to use different pronouns they are being disrespectful of my beliefs. This has absolutely nothing to do with actual names.
It is not up to me what pronouns people use when talking about me. First of all, I wouldn’t be there when that was happening - if `I was, then I’d assume they’d either use my name or use ‘you’. As in “Do you want a cup of tea?” No one ever says “do they./them want a cup of tea?”

Indeed - it's already a useful idiot-marker, when assessing job applications.

I think the reason why they/thems are disproportionately found in the public sector, NGOs, big consultancies etc is that SME employers steer well clear. It's a red flag for "constant HR niggles, ending in an ET", so why would you?

Flippant, my apologies, but if it’s their birthday do you sing 🎵Happy Birthday to Them,
Happy Birthday to Them,
Happy Birthday to <office bore>,
Happy Birthday to Them🎵

🤣

For they’s a jolly good fellow, for they’s - oops! Fellow?!

Fellxw? Fxllow?

can you show any evidence for male and female brains? science does not support that so no one can be born in the wrong body

No that's the point. If I don't know if they are male or female as I haven't actually spoken to them they are just a name on an email then I use they or their name. Once I've actually spoken to them and worked it out then I use she

You might not believe it but for some people it’s their reality.

You can’t just be a little uncomfortable for a few seconds at work and say a different word so someone else is happier? The number of things I say or smile and nod my head to at work to keep the peace is countless, even if I privately disagree!

Why does Person A have to accommodate Person B, but Person B does not have to accommodate Person A?

@CeruleanSal but it's very definitely not their reality. It might be their belief, their conviction, their hope, their deeply felt identity, what they tell themselves. But it is not a reality. Humans, as with all other mammals, cannot change sex or become "non-binary" in terms of their sex.

Exactly.

2 people are uncomfortable here.

A person who feels something. And a person who knows something.

Yet the person who feels is prioritised over the person who has reality on their side.

Make it make sense?!

It makes people happier because they've been sold a lie that it shows caring and respect, and they have foolishly believed it, 10 years ago no one did this nor did they want to and it didn't bother anyone not to be called |they". I suspect for most of these types it actually makes them less happy because they are now constantly worried what it means when people are awkward with them or use the natural pronouns.

The people who genuinely enjoy it do so because they are attention seeking or like to control others.

From a grammatical viewpoint, individualized pronouns makes no sense, the whole point of them is they need to be known intuitively and immediately.

I usually refer to people at work like this by name if I need to, and I try avoiding reffering to such people if I don't really need to, which is too bad really. Though as someone upthread said, they ALL seem to have other issues as well.

When push comes to shove I use biological pronouns. So far no one has said anything, and there are a few others in the organization who do the same. I suppose if I'm asked, I'll just say that I think that equating being a woman with being feminine is very sexist.

@CeruleanSal other things I disagree with I don't see as being harmful. If I do see them as harmful I don't go along with them, I will stand up to those pushing something that I see as harmful.

I see gender ideology as harmful.

Is his role customer facing? Then 'preferred pronouns' certainly shouldn't be tolerated, not that they have a place in any work environment at all. The customer needs to easily identify or be pointed to someone who can assist.

A PP spoke about respecting the employee - how about the employee respects their manager and other colleagues and just goes to work to do a job?

Use his name, and if you slip up and say he then just apologise if picked up on it and say "oh sorry I meant they" politely.

It's just grammar, like when you say "you are" referring to your one child.

My autistic child constantly misgenders everyone. At first, I thought it was just being young but my child has done it consistently through junior school. My child often misgenders me - his biological mother. After diagnosis, I asked and the paediatrician shrugged and said it could be to do with his autism, it could just be their way.

So yes, I agree, autistic children are very vulnerable to aggressive, punitive enforcement of identity-based pronouns.

Any teacher who tries to control the use of normal English in a student or a parent already has a safeguarding red flag for me.

It shouldn't be about their validation - they are not prioritising the wellbeing and education of the children and thus are not fufilling the main goal of their job. It's not professional.

Many teachers commonly get called 'Mum' - are the students sanctioned when they do that? No, because to do so would be unfair and suggestive of the adult not having the correct priorities (the safety, wellbeing and education of the child).

I’m interested to know where you got that statistic from, as in my circles it just isn’t true.

What isn't true?

Not quite though, is it.

I am
You are
He or She is
They are (plural or unknown sex)

I was
You were
She or He was
They were

I have
You have
He or she has
They have

That’s the English grammar I know anyway and language is so ingrained it’s automatic, perhaps not so much vocabulary as such which evolves all the time with new words, no longer appropriate words or terms, etc. but grammar is.

I wonder if there’s a reason why people who want others to use they them are as in plural, rather than the singular. So if I said something like ‘They are called Margaret and are an accountant’ is that right? Surely it would become ‘They is called Margaret and is an accountant’ would be so much more aligned to English grammar?
I am constantly confused by this.

That 99% of people subscribe to those views.