Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

[RethinkingLife]

A bracing read. I am still in a state of some despair about how long this will take. As several people have observed, in the last 10 days, the BBC (in common with other media) disseminated unscientific propaganda that male galactorrhea is better than mother’s milk, repeatedly called a deeply disturbed killer a woman while disdaining to acknowledge the alternate reality as a cat, and has publicly reprimanded Justin Webb for plain speaking that was probably helpful to many listeners.

What will it take to bring bigoted employers to heel? Part of the answer is time. During the past decade, the trans lobby has been stunningly successful in selling false analogies to HR departments: that separate toilets for men and women are like racial segregation; and that insisting people can change sex is “gay rights 2.0”.
Lazy, power-hungry HR managers and staff working in “EDI” (equality, diversity and inclusion) pronounce that the arc of the moral universe is bending towards denying sexual dimorphism, and relish imposing their will on others.
…
Imagine you’re an HR professional belatedly wondering if you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on the whole sex-gender thing. You might turn to A Practical Guide to Transgender Law by two barristers, Nicola Newbegin and transwoman Robin Moira White.
But that might not save you from serious missteps. The first edition, published before the binding Forstater judgment, enthusiastically endorsed the faulty lower court ruling. The second grudgingly acknowledged that yes, gender-critical beliefs were protected, but claimed that “manifesting” them — letting others know you held them — wasn’t.
Even before the recent string of judgments to the contrary, that was obvious nonsense. The law about freedom of belief expressly includes “manifestation”. And anyway, it takes but a moment’s thought to realise that the law can’t possibly concern beliefs that are never manifested, since it can’t reach inside the privacy of our heads.
…
At bottom, the mindset of the narcissistic identitarians joining in workplace witch-hunts is that of the Crusaders, who made converts at the point of a sword. They do not respect other people’s sovereign consciences, nor accept that their belief system is just one among many. And like the Crusaders, they need to be consigned to history.

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time/

Adding in a good read about the Meade and Phoenix rulings:

I don't remember anybody caring about any of this until particular groups started stirring it all up a few years ago.

Lol

Of course consent doesn't only relate to sexual acts. It's a word. It means to give permission for something.

You seem to want to make sure that women and girls aren't in a position where they can withhold permission from a man who wants to watch them be naked.

Unless it's a legal requirement???

That mask fell pretty quick, eh?

as I said, it's a misogyny magnet.

And I really love the, er, feminism that says women who have been raped by men are not allowed to exclude them from their spaces, lest they be considered lying liars who weaponise their trauma.

Sorry? You are really not clear here?

They have a notification out that the space is now no longer a single sex space because they are there. Therefore female people who need that space can choose not to enter that space. Female people who are ok with that space being temporarily mixed sex will enter.

The issue is when female people believe they are in a space that has no male people and that no male people will enter while they are there then finding out that they were wrong. And not because a cleaner came in while they were there.

Who are these "particular groups" and why don't you think women cared about men in their spaces before it was talked about in the media? It was certainly talked about here on MN, do a search. The U.K. movement owes MN a lot.

A public space by definition is for all people, of whatever sex. A female-only space excludes non-females so is not a public space.

Yes, those men should have stayed out of women's spaces and putting tremendous pressure on women to accept it. Because we can't and don't.

"We know what it is that a female person 'needs' and that is a space to be single sex when it is expected to be single sex."

Given that women are vastly more likely to find herself sharing a single sex space with a male cleaner than a trans person, maybe you need to expand your campaign to exclude male cleaners from women's spaces.

For women. Of which there are different definitions, depending on who you ask. Either way, no individual has to 'consent' to others being in there.

Fuck me, why is this so difficult.

That's why they have the sign

"Bathroom laws" are a last resort. But as these males increasingly refuse to self-exclude from spaces designated as female-only, it may necessarily to legislate as a preventative measure against this intrusive male dominance behaviour.

The reason there are female only spaces are for the privacy, dignity and safety of women and girls. If they have men in them they are not single sex.

"Yes, those men should have stayed out of women's spaces and putting tremendous pressure on women to accept it. Because we can't and don't."

For the sake of accuracy you need to say 'because some women can't and won't'

Because I'm a woman & you don't speak for me, or for my daughter.

That's because until a few years ago men were not emboldened to behave like this, and women were not actively discouraged from expressing concern.

I have been in some rough pubs in my time but never saw pissed up lairy blokes singing football chants deliberately target the ladies loos.

I'm glad this thread is such an object demonstration of Helen Joyce's statement. Restoring Sanity Takes Time, indeed.

That's fine. You can go in all the mixed sex spaces you want.

This hardly a woman here who won't advocate for a third space that you and your daughter can enjoy with men.

Oh dear.... and you wonder why that is?

You don't think that female people had issues with male people entering their toilet's previously and were ignored? Gosh.... it is like # metoo never happened.....

Being naked in a room with a trans woman is not a violation of privacy or dignity or safety. Some are sex offenders but they need to be dealt with as individuals, without collective punishment.

Because I'm a woman & you don't speak for me, or for my daughter.

As I said unless words mean things you could be a man, and father of a son according to your ideology.

Being naked in a room with a trans woman is not a violation of privacy or dignity or safety.

It absolutely is, if I don't consent to it. It's also a safety risk, because male people are a much higher risk to women than other women. Gender identity is completely irrelevant.

Yeah, but even you must raise your eyebrow occasionally at the number of perverts who were born in the wrong body, somehow. There is a large overlap in the Venn diagram there. How can it be explained and resolved, do you think?

Oh wow. You don't understand safeguarding at all, do you?

Right. But you do understand how this works. That there is a lowest common denominator effect here. That if female people have a basic need, in this case a female single sex space, that that is the priority. That way as many female people have what they need as possible.

Just because 'you are alright Jack' doesn't mean you get the deciding vote on what the minimum standard of safety, privacy and dignity is to be for all female people collectively. I think society would be well fucked if that was the case.

In my case, it’s not the existence of transwomen that has bullied or oppressed me. It’s the trans ideology that attempts to compel my speech and even my thoughts. My son is a transwoman, by at least one of the very vague definitions that fit under the enormous trans umbrella. Because of that, I am under enormous pressure to deny that my son is my son, and to pretend that he is my daughter. I will not be coerced, under threat of estrangement from the son I love, into deliberately lying to him or about him. It is not possible to change sex, and I don’t accept that his adoption of feminine gender stereotypes means that he is no longer my son. There is a risk that his membership of the “trans community” (I have a different word for it, which I am not permitted to utter here) will lead to him self harming by taking exogenous hormones or even, ultimately, cosmetic genital surgery.

My son seeing himself as in some sense a woman saddens me, because I don’t think it is a realistic or healthy way of thinking. He is welcome to be sensitive, gentle, more of a follower than a leader - all characteristics often associated with women, but that characterisation is undermined by countless examples of strong, inspiring women with leadership qualities. And even under the sexist stereotypes, my son has masculine qualities as well as feminine ones; maybe he struggles to see himself in the expectations our society imposes on men, but we don’t always see ourselves as others see us.

It is indicative of the traction that trans ideology has gained, that I cannot be confident that MN will allow this post to remain!

When a convicted rapist who had raped a woman so badly she was unable to have children, was put into a woman's prison, you're damn right things started to get stirred up. He even told the authorities, if you put me in there, I'll attack women. They still did it.

You might have thought that was a one off. But no. Being a rapist does not preclude the authorities from sticking a man in a woman's prison.

Neither does men's physical advances stop the IOC from allowing men to scoop women's awards.

Nor does the fact that one girl a day is raped in school, stop schools from forcing girls into mixed sex toilets.

Still, I'm sure there are an awful a lot of men who are fucking annoyed that women got 'stirred up.'

@ForCoralFox

If I am in a female only space getting changed and a man comes in, is this a violation of my privacy and dignity? Forget about gender identity, imagine that you don't know it. If a man enters a female space where women are undressed and vulnerable, do you expect women to mind?