Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

[RethinkingLife]

A bracing read. I am still in a state of some despair about how long this will take. As several people have observed, in the last 10 days, the BBC (in common with other media) disseminated unscientific propaganda that male galactorrhea is better than mother’s milk, repeatedly called a deeply disturbed killer a woman while disdaining to acknowledge the alternate reality as a cat, and has publicly reprimanded Justin Webb for plain speaking that was probably helpful to many listeners.

What will it take to bring bigoted employers to heel? Part of the answer is time. During the past decade, the trans lobby has been stunningly successful in selling false analogies to HR departments: that separate toilets for men and women are like racial segregation; and that insisting people can change sex is “gay rights 2.0”.
Lazy, power-hungry HR managers and staff working in “EDI” (equality, diversity and inclusion) pronounce that the arc of the moral universe is bending towards denying sexual dimorphism, and relish imposing their will on others.
…
Imagine you’re an HR professional belatedly wondering if you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on the whole sex-gender thing. You might turn to A Practical Guide to Transgender Law by two barristers, Nicola Newbegin and transwoman Robin Moira White.
But that might not save you from serious missteps. The first edition, published before the binding Forstater judgment, enthusiastically endorsed the faulty lower court ruling. The second grudgingly acknowledged that yes, gender-critical beliefs were protected, but claimed that “manifesting” them — letting others know you held them — wasn’t.
Even before the recent string of judgments to the contrary, that was obvious nonsense. The law about freedom of belief expressly includes “manifestation”. And anyway, it takes but a moment’s thought to realise that the law can’t possibly concern beliefs that are never manifested, since it can’t reach inside the privacy of our heads.
…
At bottom, the mindset of the narcissistic identitarians joining in workplace witch-hunts is that of the Crusaders, who made converts at the point of a sword. They do not respect other people’s sovereign consciences, nor accept that their belief system is just one among many. And like the Crusaders, they need to be consigned to history.

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time/

Adding in a good read about the Meade and Phoenix rulings:

But you are arbitrarily designating one thing as 'feelings' and another as 'needs.'

"I see. So a woman being retraumatised finding a male in a space they believed was safe and only female is having their 'harm' dismissed and redefinied as 'them not liking it and not actually harmed'."

There are male cleaners in the vast majority of single female spaces every day in every public building in the UK. And almost no trans women.

@ForCoralFox - do you think that a woman's religious requirement for a female-only space is a feeling or a need?

Of course, not everyone's a genius!

But order to understand why most women here think it is a sexist ideology, the question you need to ask is what social factors are you talking about?

There's the argument of course, that social factors do not determine sex. Which I'm sure you must agree with, because different women will have different social experiences.

But what is the social experience that you consider that you have had, which all other women have had, but also, be shared with your friend? But not a man who is not identifying as a woman.

If your friend is in the same category as you and all other women, what is the shared experience?

Transwomen are men.

But order to understand why most women here think it is a sexist ideology

Which is what this poster claimed to be so baffled by.

I asked you to start specifically supporting how you see your objectives working. This is not showing how your objectives work to improve the life of female people.

Ooh, let me guess. Is your next point going to be 'your toilet at home is gender neutral!!!'?

I need to look out my bingo card and dabbers.

And at any time a male cleaner is in a female only space there is a notice notifying women who may have concerns about that so they can self-exclude for reasons of safety, dignity and privacy.

But what is the social experience that you consider that you have had, which all other women have had, but also, be shared with your friend? But not a man who is not identifying as a woman.

Yes, I'd like an answer to this from the various genderists, if they'd be so kind. It's not a very useful category, otherwise, is it?

I know.

Sometimes I think they don't even realise how they are prioritising men.

Women might not like it but suck it up!

I wouldn't mind if it was an incel talking, but it's someone who claims they're a feminist.

(actually, I think I might just have found my own explanation...)

But we can only know they are transgendered because they said so. There's no objective measurement.

So in practice this means that "trans rights" includes the "right" of any male to use any female-only space, simply by declaring himself to be female or a woman or a girl.

Do you honestly believe that this is fair?

I am not male. Claiming that any woman who has been sexually assaulted is traumatised by the presence of a trans woman is just using women's trauma in a deeply unpleasant way, and is simply untrue.

Consent relates to sexual acts, not public spaces. It's another word constantly misused on this forum.

I am not sure what it is that you are trying to highlight with this post.

A male cleaner in a female single sex space will have a sign out saying they are cleaning the space. So too will a maintenance person.

A female person can actively choose whether they enter that space or not based on that notification.

Do you think that all transgender people are breaking the law when they use the bathrooms associated with their gender? Do you think the EHRC statutory guidance is wrong in law? Do you think every single public body and almost all private ones are breaking the law?

Please do provide any case law at all which supports your view.

It's a feeling. People choose to follow a religion, or bits of it. I'm Jewish myself but choose to ignore all the silly bits.

We've established up thread that most GC people want to exclude transgender people from spaces to which they currently have legal access.

Nope. We have a right to kick them out. They have exploited the fact that that was discretionary and not compulsory.

No rights are being removed.

Women's rights are just being exercised.

@ForCoralFox a female-only space is by definition not a public space.

Do you think that all transgender people are breaking the law

We don't have "bathroom laws" in this country so it doesn't arise. Nice pivot though.

"A male cleaner in a female single sex space will have a sign out saying they are cleaning the space. So too will a maintenance person"

But then enter these spaces when women are in them.

And they're male.

Their maleness in a female space is the problem isn't it?

It's not about what they're doing.

We know what it is that a female person 'needs' and that is a space to be single sex when it is expected to be single sex.

That is the priority.

A male person can use the male single sex space. A female cannot. No male person above the age of 8 'needs' to use a female single sex space. They have their own

If they cannot use that male single sex space because other male people are there, they need to address this. Coming into a female single sex space is not a solution. It never was. Either a campaign to improve the safety in a male single sex space is needed, or, a third space is needed.

Do you want "bathroom laws?"

If it's in a public building, it's a public space.

Do you want "bathroom laws?"

No. I want men with special identities to stop being told it's ok to use our spaces. And for there to be social pressure for them not to do so.

If it's in a public building, it's a public space.

For female people. Not males.