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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another BBC Complaint Thread: Response to "human milk" piece

63 replies

WitchyWitcherson · 01/03/2024 19:26

Lots of threads about the beeb this evening, oh dear 😂

I complained about the BBC News Channel interview with Kate Luxion the other night and have received this response...

"Thank you for getting in touch about an edition of ‘The Context’ broadcast on the BBC News Channel on 19 February.

The final segment of this edition focused on the publication of a letter from a medical director at an NHS Trust, written in response to campaign groups, which said that transgender women’s milk is just as good for babies as breast milk, referring to studies and WHO guidance.

Strong criticism of the letter’s contents by campaign groups was widely reported and so the programme sought reaction from Kate Luxion, an academic with relevant experience who was introduced as a “Research Fellow in Creative Health at the University College London and a lactation consultant trainee”.

During the discussion some of those criticisms were highlighted, with presenter Rajini Vaidyanathan pointing out that:
“There have been campaign groups who have criticised this letter. One, Policy Exchange, has said that the letter is unbalanced and naïve in its assertion that the secretions produced by a male on hormones could nourish an infant in the way a mother’s breastmilk can.”

And that:
“Another thing I’d like to put to you from critics of this letter - saying the NHS should not be indulging in this nonsense. A child's welfare must always take precedence over identity politics and what they describe as “contested beliefs systems that are not evidence-based”. Just once again, you say that there is evidence in this?”

After broadcast we received complaints suggesting that Kate Luxion was an inappropriate contributor and that the discussion was misleading or misrepresented the science.

Some viewers also specifically objected to the reference to “WHO guidance” in the introduction and while the letter from Dr Rachael James on behalf of University Hospitals Sussex does cite WHO guidance as part of a broader response, we accept that our script could have been clearer on this point.

Although we believe viewers would clearly understand that the discussion represented Kate Luxion’s assessment of the existing evidence, and that this was robustly challenged with other perspectives, we accept it may have been better to have interviewed Kate Luxion alongside another voice when examining the issues raised by the letter.

Your concerns have been discussed directly with senior editors and we will bear them in mind for any future coverage of this issue.

Thank you again for writing in - we very much value your feedback."

The stock response presumably means a lot of complaints were submitted! Who knows if it made much of a ripple amongst senior editors but fingers crossed they'll make sure their "experts" are actual experts next time and give a more balanced view... Not holding my breath!

OP posts:
StarlightLime · 02/03/2024 20:48

AuldWeegie · 02/03/2024 20:45

At the risk of sounding thick, where is the biological mother in this scenario?

You'd have to wonder, wouldn't you? Imagine pandering to that, with the baby you've just given birth to 😵‍💫

NecessaryScene · 02/03/2024 20:50

At the risk of sounding thick, where is the biological mother in this scenario?

Under the patio?

WhiteVelvet · 02/03/2024 20:57

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Emotionalsupportviper · 02/03/2024 21:02

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

You do realise that "milk" from someone who hasn't developed the appropriate mammary glands during puberty is NOT breast milk? It is largely sebum and pus because the glands have not differentiated. (Mammary glands are modified sweat glands - they develop during a "window" of female puberty when the glands are sensitive to the appropriate hormones - you can't just bung any hormones into any glands in any body at any time).

Fatty tissue may grow, approximating "breasts", when hormones are applied to a post-pubertal male body, and they may excrete a substance, but it isn't milk.

ditalini · 02/03/2024 21:13

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

The correct response when there are unknowns in the safety profile of a novel substance being fed to babies is, let's NOT support or encourage it until it's been proven safe.

The onus is on those wanting to support men to feed babies artificial-hormone-induced milk to conduct the research. If that's deemed a "waste of time", then the NHS should CERTAINLY not be encouraging it.

It's flabergasting the difference in safeguarding when gender identity is involved. The same goes for transmen who take testosterone in pregnancy when you compare the response to women who want to continue taking a prescribed drug that's not been proven safe in the fetus.

FrancescaContini · 02/03/2024 21:15

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

This is the funniest thing I’ve read in a while. Thank you for the laugh.

UtterlyOtterly · 02/03/2024 21:25

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WhiteVelvet · 02/03/2024 21:25

And i’m away.

I’ve been on this section of the forum for no more than 24hours.

That’s the second time today i’ve had my speech censored on this forum. The last being on this thread because I told the truth. Not my truth, but THE TRUTH.

There is absolutely no way on God’s green earth i’m allowing an incognito person at a keyboard decide what I can or cannot say. I’ve been through all this nonsense before somewhere else...

Cheerio

UtterlyOtterly · 02/03/2024 21:43

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ANameChangePresents · 02/03/2024 22:48

As are we all. Screenshot taken MN, before it's memory holed.

JanesLittleGirl · 02/03/2024 22:56

There was a debate on a related thread about how to describe the flow from a male breast. The descriptions that come to mind are: discharge; effluvium and excretion.

Crankywiddershins · 02/03/2024 23:10

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

They said the same thing about men pretending to be trans to gain access to women in situations where those women are vulnerable. How's that going for you? I mean it's only a few of them... Isla Bryson, Tiffany Scott, Karen White, Amy George.
I'm sure I could find some more, but the point is that one is one too many.

Crankywiddershins · 02/03/2024 23:11

JanesLittleGirl · 02/03/2024 22:56

There was a debate on a related thread about how to describe the flow from a male breast. The descriptions that come to mind are: discharge; effluvium and excretion.

I know it's not a medical term but can I add "gunk" to the list?

IcakethereforeIam · 02/03/2024 23:13

Matter 🤢

oopster74 · 03/03/2024 01:30

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dunBle · 03/03/2024 03:25

It's not stupidity or bigotry, it's experience. Pretty much every woman here who has breastfed will tell you they've been advised to avoid certain foods or medications while breastfeeding, due to the risk of various substances passing into their breast milk. You blithely asserting that there's no point mentioning the safety of babies means you either don't understand the issue, or are deliberately ignoring it due to your own personal biases.

Happyinarcon · 03/03/2024 05:14

They are throwing us bones to fight over

Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 07:29

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I suggest you actually read the many threads specific to this thread. On those there are studies and reports linked that contain evidence that you are the one who seems to have no actual knowledge of what you are talking about when you say ‘males can breastfeed’. They can secrete a substance but despite erroneous claims, that substance has NOT been fully analysed at all. It has been partially analysed while conveniently ignoring the potential drug and hormone interactions that need to also be tested.

And you are also misinformed. There are numerous reports of this happening across the world. Doctors are assisting them to do this and have been for years now.

In fact, the only thing you seem to be right about is that it shouldn’t be happening and that the funding for research should be put into funding more consistent support for women breastfeeding or if women are not able to, ensuring women can supply their infants with formula or donated breastmilk from other mothers.

How many infants are you determined to ignore the safety of in your own ignorance here? Because we already have had one child last year in the UK being breast feed on a bus by a male person being shared on social media. Around the same time in Australia two women were threatened with legal proceedings for highlighting a male publicising that male person’s own feeding experiences.

There is at least now two infants who have been part of studies that have been peer reviewed.

If these infants have been fed a substance that has not been fully analysed for drug and hormone content, questions about abuse should absolutely be raised.

Your denial seems completely evidence free.

Well done though for the nice act of trying to position women who have done the work in looking at the research as being stupid and bigoted. It just highlighted that your accusations are just projection.

WitchyWitcherson · 03/03/2024 07:37

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Why have you come to tell us off for being concerned when you're also making some of the same arguments as us?

"Why not spend money researching something more important?"
"Is this harmful?" (You're saying "Haven't a clue" but we're telling you the harms...)

Your posts bare all the hallmarks of someone who has been through the gender ideology circus and starting to come out of the other side. Closing your eyes to the facts and Calling us names.

We're informed, experienced women and we won't stand by watching children getting harmed for some stupid neo religion.

Sincerely,

A breastfeeding woman

(Did you know when breastfeeding, women are markedly more aggressive... I'm guessing it's nature's way of getting protecting babies.)

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 07:37

”Are you all too stupid or caught up in your own ignorant bigotry to understand what I said? I didn't mention the safety of babies because there was no point, they're safe. You might get 1 man or transwoman attempt to breastfeed in the entire world and that's all. My point was that it is possible for men and transwomen to breastfeed, I learned this years ago before I even questioned my own gender identity. Is it recommended? I haven't a clue, but you lot are assuming that there's some automatic risk to it. In regular families, if breastfeeding could be shared between parents then isn't that a good thing? I highly doubt the numbers would be high for men or transwomen to want or even attempt to breastfeed though, how many men even change a baby's nappy right now. And researching something that is unlikely to ever be a big thing is a waste of time and resources, so the advice would be we don't know and can't recommend it while we don't know, now can we get on with researching something important like cancer?”

This reads like a classic denial that we see frequently.

It doesn’t happen.

oh, it happened one time !

Twice! It happened twice. So what! It is still ‘not’ happening.

Ok, it IS happening but you are all bigots. Isn’t it a ‘good thing‘ that it is happening ?

Beefcurtains79 · 03/03/2024 07:49

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Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 08:01

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AlisonDonut · 03/03/2024 08:07

These guys obsessed with getting male nipples into babies mouths, never tell us about their tales of milking a bull and making their hipster cappucinos with the resulting effluent do they?

Zodfa · 03/03/2024 08:07

If trans women can breastfeed then all men can breastfeed! This will obviously be a great advance towards mums and dads taking equal roles in childrearing which I am sure everyone who supports trans people will be extremely pleased about.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 08:21

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How do we know that male "milk" doesn't cause cancer? Five, 10, 50 years down the line? We don't, because the safety of it has never been investigated. Same with the testosterone flooding trans identifying women's bodies - we just don't know what horrible effects these drugs might have on a foetus or infant.

You say:
I highly doubt the numbers would be high for men or transwomen to want or even attempt to breastfeed though, how many men even change a baby's nappy right now. . . . that is unlikely to ever be a big thing

You are ignoring the determination of the paraphiliac individual.

And as for not being a "big thing" - one baby suffering detrimentally is one too many. The good of the infant is paramount.

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