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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another BBC Complaint Thread: Response to "human milk" piece

63 replies

WitchyWitcherson · 01/03/2024 19:26

Lots of threads about the beeb this evening, oh dear 😂

I complained about the BBC News Channel interview with Kate Luxion the other night and have received this response...

"Thank you for getting in touch about an edition of ‘The Context’ broadcast on the BBC News Channel on 19 February.

The final segment of this edition focused on the publication of a letter from a medical director at an NHS Trust, written in response to campaign groups, which said that transgender women’s milk is just as good for babies as breast milk, referring to studies and WHO guidance.

Strong criticism of the letter’s contents by campaign groups was widely reported and so the programme sought reaction from Kate Luxion, an academic with relevant experience who was introduced as a “Research Fellow in Creative Health at the University College London and a lactation consultant trainee”.

During the discussion some of those criticisms were highlighted, with presenter Rajini Vaidyanathan pointing out that:
“There have been campaign groups who have criticised this letter. One, Policy Exchange, has said that the letter is unbalanced and naïve in its assertion that the secretions produced by a male on hormones could nourish an infant in the way a mother’s breastmilk can.”

And that:
“Another thing I’d like to put to you from critics of this letter - saying the NHS should not be indulging in this nonsense. A child's welfare must always take precedence over identity politics and what they describe as “contested beliefs systems that are not evidence-based”. Just once again, you say that there is evidence in this?”

After broadcast we received complaints suggesting that Kate Luxion was an inappropriate contributor and that the discussion was misleading or misrepresented the science.

Some viewers also specifically objected to the reference to “WHO guidance” in the introduction and while the letter from Dr Rachael James on behalf of University Hospitals Sussex does cite WHO guidance as part of a broader response, we accept that our script could have been clearer on this point.

Although we believe viewers would clearly understand that the discussion represented Kate Luxion’s assessment of the existing evidence, and that this was robustly challenged with other perspectives, we accept it may have been better to have interviewed Kate Luxion alongside another voice when examining the issues raised by the letter.

Your concerns have been discussed directly with senior editors and we will bear them in mind for any future coverage of this issue.

Thank you again for writing in - we very much value your feedback."

The stock response presumably means a lot of complaints were submitted! Who knows if it made much of a ripple amongst senior editors but fingers crossed they'll make sure their "experts" are actual experts next time and give a more balanced view... Not holding my breath!

OP posts:
Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 08:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NecessaryScene · 03/03/2024 08:26

It has been partially analysed while conveniently ignoring the potential drug and hormone interactions that need to also be tested.

Has it though? I thought we still had only one very cursory analysis of one male's alleged samples.

The two problems being

a) I didn't get the impression they were actually doing any specific tests for it being a novel substance - they were doing the same routine basic tests they do on actual breast milk, checking for its quality. They weren't testing more fundamentally for what it was. (It's like looking at the label for the fat/sugar/energy nutritonal information but not checking the ingredients list).

b) They didn't check it was actually produced by him. It seems likely the samples he provided (in containers) were produced by the actual mother, given that we don't really have any other evidence of men being able to produce anything like breast milk.

So all we know is yes, men can provide breast milk - in bottles - that cursorily looks like good female breast milk, if they have a lactating woman in the house.

Amazing.

Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 08:33

NecessaryScene · 03/03/2024 08:26

It has been partially analysed while conveniently ignoring the potential drug and hormone interactions that need to also be tested.

Has it though? I thought we still had only one very cursory analysis of one male's alleged samples.

The two problems being

a) I didn't get the impression they were actually doing any specific tests for it being a novel substance - they were doing the same routine basic tests they do on actual breast milk, checking for its quality. They weren't testing more fundamentally for what it was. (It's like looking at the label for the fat/sugar/energy nutritonal information but not checking the ingredients list).

b) They didn't check it was actually produced by him. It seems likely the samples he provided (in containers) were produced by the actual mother, given that we don't really have any other evidence of men being able to produce anything like breast milk.

So all we know is yes, men can provide breast milk - in bottles - that cursorily looks like good female breast milk, if they have a lactating woman in the house.

Amazing.

Edited

Aren’t we up to two male samples (supposedly)? The first checked was in the 80s and was a male with a tumour and this was only checked for basic nutrition. This one may have been discharged under supervision, maybe not though.

The second supposed check was the one delivered to the researcher frozen and in the bag already.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 08:34

Well said @NecessaryScene .

From what I have read there was nothing to confirm that this milk was produced by the trans identifying male parent.

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 08:36

TWO samples @Helleofabore ? - Why didn't you say so?

Obviously the results of analysis will be totally reliable if they've tested TWO samples!

Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 08:52

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 08:36

TWO samples @Helleofabore ? - Why didn't you say so?

Obviously the results of analysis will be totally reliable if they've tested TWO samples!

I know. I think we are supposed to treat them like unicorn sperm though in the amount of respect we are to give those two samples. I did point out on one thread that until the reliability for supposed safety, ie no interactions and no increased testosterone levels, had been established by thousands of verified samples covering the many many different drug interactions and different individual bodies ability to screen them out, why the fuck would any health service be making rash declarations. Also considering the experiences of the past. The poster I pointed this out on never answered. As we know, they never do.

It is like all the learnings of the past in not testing robustly has been ditched because this group is special. And not only that, but the knowledge we have of how male and female bodies process chemicals differently has also been forgotten. That a NHS trust is behind that letter is significantly concerning.

But apparently ‘two’ samples and that completely inconsistent other study, where a doctor declared that a six week old was perfectly thriving on exclusive feeding (also unverified) from a male who hit what is now being seen as the limit of production for a healthy infant within the first week of life, is declared strong evidence to base infant health policy on.

What could go wrong? But apparently, it is to be viewed as good thing so a male person can help out at home …..

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 12:39

it is to be viewed as good thing so a male person can help out at home …..

Mr Viper was a right lazy sod, @Helleofabore - all he ever did during the night was change nappies and bring me a few gallons drink of water* while I was feeding, then pop the little vipers back into their cot and make me a cup of tea because I was parched.

*I wonder if any of these "milk"-providing men get so thirsty that they would lick the walls of an abattoir if that was the only way they could recoup some liquid. I (and others I have spoken to) could actually feel my mouth drying out at the baby fed. You get dehydrated very quickly - I could scarcely believe it.

pickledandpuzzled · 03/03/2024 12:47

Who was the chap that took selfies of himself breastfeeding on a bus? With a baby that looked mighty uncomfortable. He also starred in some BBC media campaign where he was filling a washing machine from a washing up bowl, with marigolds with a breast pump prominently placed on the drainer.

And his personal socials were quite fetishy- something about the joys of nipple clamps, which wouldn’t be at all joyous of you were breastfeeding. And were unwise to leave up if you were going to claim to breastfeed an actual living nippleclamp baby.

But remembering that just makes me a nasty, dirty minded terf, I seem to recall.

Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 12:59

pickledandpuzzled · 03/03/2024 12:47

Who was the chap that took selfies of himself breastfeeding on a bus? With a baby that looked mighty uncomfortable. He also starred in some BBC media campaign where he was filling a washing machine from a washing up bowl, with marigolds with a breast pump prominently placed on the drainer.

And his personal socials were quite fetishy- something about the joys of nipple clamps, which wouldn’t be at all joyous of you were breastfeeding. And were unwise to leave up if you were going to claim to breastfeed an actual living nippleclamp baby.

But remembering that just makes me a nasty, dirty minded terf, I seem to recall.

Mika Minio-Paluello – a former Labour special adviser

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12262681/amp/Gender-critical-campaigners-slam-trans-woman-activist-breastfeeding-photo.html

This male person also claimed to be a ‘struggling mum’ or referred to as one as the cost of living spiraled.

Gender-critical campaigners slam trans activist over breastfeeding

Mika Minio-Paluello - a former Labour special adviser - was seen during Wednesday night's News At Ten doing the washing up while she spoke of how the soaring water bills.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12262681/amp/Gender-critical-campaigners-slam-trans-woman-activist-breastfeeding-photo.html

Helleofabore · 03/03/2024 13:04

Emotionalsupportviper · 03/03/2024 12:39

it is to be viewed as good thing so a male person can help out at home …..

Mr Viper was a right lazy sod, @Helleofabore - all he ever did during the night was change nappies and bring me a few gallons drink of water* while I was feeding, then pop the little vipers back into their cot and make me a cup of tea because I was parched.

*I wonder if any of these "milk"-providing men get so thirsty that they would lick the walls of an abattoir if that was the only way they could recoup some liquid. I (and others I have spoken to) could actually feel my mouth drying out at the baby fed. You get dehydrated very quickly - I could scarcely believe it.

Mine too. It is like, I don’t know, fathers can do all these amazing things to do their share… but some posters seem to think that males should be applauded to unknown feed secretions from their breasts to go that extra mile.

But there we are…

SinnerBoy · 03/03/2024 13:12

oopster74 · Yesterday 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

It's not milk, although it may be a simulacrum of it. The main drug (to induce lactation.) has a metabolite, which passes into mother's milk, which is definitely known to be harmful to babies and women are not allowed to feed them, until it has cleared from their systems. These men were on doses double that of women, who take it to induce lactation.

Why anybody would support the practice, on those grounds alone, is beyond me.

Apart from that, the lipid, sodium and lactose levels were not within the normal range; not to mention that they didn't bother to check for vitamins, minerals and antibodies, which a breastfeeding mother will pass to her baby.

pickledandpuzzled · 03/03/2024 13:36

All the things new dads can do to support their baby and the baby’s mum. Stuff like cleaning, cooking and serving regular drinks. Carting stuff about (oh how I envy those male muscles). Laundry and nappy changes.

Let mum have some time to get used to her new body again, recover from the birth, and think only of feeding and getting to know the baby. Let the baby get used to be outside mum, instead of inside.

Don’t muscle in on feeding and prioritise your desire for the world to revolve around you over the baby’s need for it to revolve around baby and mum.

SabrinaThwaite · 03/03/2024 21:34

More research would definitely be needed to prove this is safe - but with informed consent from all involved.

Oh, wait a minute … the most important person in this scenario can’t consent, what with being a baby.

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