Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Will Labour introduce Self ID & curb free speech?

531 replies

Heylo · 28/02/2024 15:44

I’ve never voted Tory, but as a lesbian woman who plans to have children (and obviously as a woman!) I am and will be part of the three groups most affected by Gender Ideology; women, lesbian and soon I hope a Mother. I am really worried about what happens when Labour takes power. The Tories have been rubbish no arguments there but at least they are finally moving against the steam rolling of Gender Ideology. I’m thinking Labour are not that fiscally different to the Tories and have said they will not cap bankers bonuses and they don’t intend to increase public spending in a significant way.

Really concerned about more gender identity clinics popping up under Labour and Keir Starmer possibly curbing free speech via so - called hate laws (in the feminist circle i run in we all agree this is a euphemism for silencing women about men in female prisons, rape shelters and other areas where women are vulnerable).

wonder what everyone else thinking?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Heylo · 29/02/2024 10:48

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 08:06

"Overreaching" =/= transitioning children though.
I think you are right to be concerned but language is important and saying "the role of schools to educate and not transition children" makes it sound as if schools have abandoned a core principle (education) and instead turned into Frankenstein's trans factory. Which is not true, even if some schools have done things some parents don't like.

I don’t think the poster used hyperbole - frankly many teachers are aiding and abetting social transitions - that’s factually correct. Transition starts with the social and will often end in medical if not nipped in the bud.

I feel pretty comfortable in the use of descriptors in contrast to the outright lies & manipulation of data used by TRAs.

let’s not worry about arranging deckchairs on the titanic

OP posts:
RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:02

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:46

What does "fascist" mean in that article?
Also "communists" don't represent the left wing in the same way "fascists" don't represent the right. Communism is one type of left wing movement, fascism is one type of right wing movement. They are the extreme left/right movements but there are still big differences between them (fascism is individualistic whereas communism is collective for example).

We are not at any risk of a communist government in the UK but arguably we are at risk of a fascist government as a lot of the current Reform/Conservative rhetoric draws on fascist ideas.

Same in the USA - in fact probably more so with Trump.

Both extremes mirror each other. What ended in the Holcaust and the extermination of 6 million people depended on the subservience of people to the crowd - to group think. Group think is not exclusive to the right by any means.

At the moment what scares me more is the totalitarianism of the supposed Left. It is the Leftists targeting people who will not utter the exact word they demand ( " Genocide"), or who use words they do not like ( "Transwomen are men"). I have not found myself in any situation being screamed at by any right wing mobs - but I have had 'Fascist" screamed at me by mobs of trans activists and others who have totally lost their mind.

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:10

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:02

Both extremes mirror each other. What ended in the Holcaust and the extermination of 6 million people depended on the subservience of people to the crowd - to group think. Group think is not exclusive to the right by any means.

At the moment what scares me more is the totalitarianism of the supposed Left. It is the Leftists targeting people who will not utter the exact word they demand ( " Genocide"), or who use words they do not like ( "Transwomen are men"). I have not found myself in any situation being screamed at by any right wing mobs - but I have had 'Fascist" screamed at me by mobs of trans activists and others who have totally lost their mind.

Edited

Groupthink/Mass formation arises from the meeting of four psychological conditions at the population level ( not exclusive to the Right by any means) Desmet explains: feelings of social isolation, the absence of meaning in life, free-floating anxiety (lacking a clear object) and free-floating anger and frustration.

The ingredients are thus present for mass formation. Still missing is the catalyst: a narrative which heightens fear while providing an object against which anxiety can be directed – perhaps rationalized using the latest scientific “advances.” Suddenly the lonely, lost and anxious individual can contribute meaningfully to a (seemingly) worthy project. Many thus regain a sense of purpose and feeling of fellowship from doing right by their fellow citizens. A new social bond, even a new kind of citizenship, can emerge, says Desmet. This is the most important aspect of mass formation. It is maintained by indoctrination and propaganda “injected on a daily basis via mass media,” even as alternative voices are systematically silenced.

Populations are typically not uniform in their mass formation response, Desmet finds. About one-third fully internalize the process, become completely committed and willingly promote the narrative. A middle 40-50 percent may not be entirely convinced but go along to get along, especially if a job, key relationship or other asset is at risk. The final 10-30 percent remain independent in their thinking and some engage in outright dissent.ntelligence and education are no protection; to the contrary, the highly educated can be the most receptive, especially when science is enlisted in the cause.

“It is here that we, together with Hannah Arendt, situate the undercurrent of totalitarianism,” Desmet writes, “A naïve belief that a flawless, humanoid being and utopian society can be produced from scientific knowledge. The Nazi idea of creating a purebred superman based on eugenics and social Darwinism, and the Stalinist ideal of a proletarian society based on historical-materialism are prototypical examples.”

More immediately, mass formation generates what Desmet calls the “astounding” characteristics of totalitarian behaviour among the population: the sacrifice of the personal to the (alleged) good of the collective, intolerance of dissident voices, an informant mentality, susceptibility to pseudo-scientific indoctrination and propaganda, and the blind following of a narrow logic impervious to counter-evidence and transcending ethical boundaries. “The crowd acts in a coordinated way and repeats the same slogans,” Desmet notes. “It engages thoughts and expressions that spread through its ranks at lightning speed....aggression that is still looking for an object. Historically, this object has been the group that refuses to go along with the narrative. We should not underestimate where this could go"

ArabellaScott · 29/02/2024 11:42

Giggorata · 29/02/2024 10:19

Of course they bloody will.
You have only to look at what they are doing with their own women members whilst they are in opposition.
Give them some power and they will demonstrate the fascism of the left.

Looking to the way Labour have treated Rosie Duffield and other women, this is a good point.

How many good women have been expelled after a witch hunt?

Karen Ingala Smith, ffs!

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/karen-ingala-smith-rejected-by-labour-party/

Karen Ingala Smith rejected by Labour Party

Karen Ingala Smith rejected by Labour Party - Labour Women's Declaration

"We wish to express our outrage that Karen Ingala Smith has been barred from membership of the Labour Party. Karen is a long-standing and well-respected

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/karen-ingala-smith-rejected-by-labour-party

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 29/02/2024 11:53

Yes, I do.
I think a lot of Labour voters are going to be very disappointed.
They'll bring in Self ID by the backdoor by making a GRC easier to get.
They'll follow Canada and Ireland on the hate-speech laws, which will shut down free speech.
I also think there will be a backlash following a Labour term with a big swing to the right, just as has happened in Europe and may happen in the USA and Canada.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 29/02/2024 11:57

How is the current Tory party totalitarian? If anything, they are committed to destroying the State. They are creating a kind of anarchy, in which only the interests of the rich prevail, and where civil society has been broken down through underfunding and neglect.

I'm no fan of the Tories, but the Left is infinitely more totalitarian in its ideology and operations.

Signalbox · 29/02/2024 11:58

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:44

Please done watch this Siglebox; its really going to fry your brain;

s

I watched it. There is nothing in this clip that supports your claim that Starmer was aware of the undercover police who were operating in activist groups and having abusive relationships with female activists at the time he was assisting HS and DM with the McLibel case. There is zero evidence to support this claim because if there was it would be headline news.

duc748 · 29/02/2024 12:20

From that The Critic piece:

Nicola Sturgeon’s reform of the Gender Recognition Act, which would allow people legally to change their sex, with minimal checks, from the age of sixteen.

Even the more decent sectors of the media continue to use these kinds of formulations, I wish they wouldn't. People can't change sex! As bad as 'sex-change operations'. No such thing.

More generally, the piece certainly paints a bleak picture of the Labour Party these days.

PP82 · 29/02/2024 12:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BackToLurk · 29/02/2024 12:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You think children only don't tell their parents things because they are 'afraid'. Oh bless your sweet summer soul.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:31

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:02

Both extremes mirror each other. What ended in the Holcaust and the extermination of 6 million people depended on the subservience of people to the crowd - to group think. Group think is not exclusive to the right by any means.

At the moment what scares me more is the totalitarianism of the supposed Left. It is the Leftists targeting people who will not utter the exact word they demand ( " Genocide"), or who use words they do not like ( "Transwomen are men"). I have not found myself in any situation being screamed at by any right wing mobs - but I have had 'Fascist" screamed at me by mobs of trans activists and others who have totally lost their mind.

Edited

Hmmm. OK. Maybe that's to do with where we both hang out. From my perspective, it's the right wing that are now being openly racist, backing violent protesters like Tommy Robinson, and targeting people who won't say what they want (there's no such thing as a trans woman, they are men).

The right are in power more and the totalitarianism is what I hear directly coming out of MPs mouths, not what's inferred based on my politics.

But we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

Underthinker · 29/02/2024 12:32

As unquestionable things go, I'd say transitioning kids behind their parents' back is one of the more questionable.

BackToLurk · 29/02/2024 12:33

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:31

Hmmm. OK. Maybe that's to do with where we both hang out. From my perspective, it's the right wing that are now being openly racist, backing violent protesters like Tommy Robinson, and targeting people who won't say what they want (there's no such thing as a trans woman, they are men).

The right are in power more and the totalitarianism is what I hear directly coming out of MPs mouths, not what's inferred based on my politics.

But we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

Labour has literally just lost a PPC & an actual candidate because they were racist.

ScrollingLeaves · 29/02/2024 12:37

Holeinamole · 28/02/2024 16:31

One-word answer to your question: yes.

Self-ID in all but name and a do-it-yourself police state with surveillance outsourced to self-appointed and unaccountable guardians of virtue. Would love to be wrong, obviously.

Yes, this is what I fear.

And schools and the NHS and other organisations will be even more riddled.

ResisterRex · 29/02/2024 12:42

Froodwithatowel · 28/02/2024 16:16

Yes. At high speed.

Stand by to make the Labour party's life a living hell for 5 years.

x.com/furiousbanshee/status/1762872332731765087?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

gendercriticalwoman.blog/2022/04/05/labour-party-anthony-watson/

This £80k to Labour (first link) is significant as it's from August 2023. Probably needs its own thread but relevant here. Second link gives further background.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:45

You know undermining public systems (like schools and education) and eroding trust in experts (like teachers) is one of the hallmarks of fascism, right?

https://world101.cfr.org/contemporary-history/world-war/what-fascism

I'm not angry about what's being said about schools because of any position I might hold on gender politics. I'm angry because undermining schools is a fascist tactic.

Same with undermining the civil service. Or scientists.

I don't want to see the UK slide into fascism.

This is an interesting analysis of De Santis' policy on controlling education in Florida and how it mirrors what Mussolini did in Italy. Quite long though.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fascisms-history-offers-lessons-about-todays-attacks-on-education/

What Is Fascism?

In this free resource, learn how Benito Mussolini and Adolf Hitler rose to power and the lessons their political journeys hold for today.

https://world101.cfr.org/contemporary-history/world-war/what-fascism

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:47

BackToLurk · 29/02/2024 12:33

Labour has literally just lost a PPC & an actual candidate because they were racist.

Yes. Shame you can't say the same for the Conservatives who refuse to actually outright condemn Anderson and leave other racists in place.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:48

"Lost" is a very passive way to describe it too. I prefer "Labour has literally just got rid of a PPC & an actual candidate because they were racist."
Good work Labour, I say

BackToLurk · 29/02/2024 12:49

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:47

Yes. Shame you can't say the same for the Conservatives who refuse to actually outright condemn Anderson and leave other racists in place.

Without derailing. The only reason that the Labour Rochdale candidate went was that a recording of the meeting he spoke at was leaked. A meeting filled with other Labour activists who presumably saw nothing wrong with what he said. Labour activists who are all still in place.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:55

Do you have anything to say about the Conservatives support for Anderson? His comments and subsequent doubling down were all during media appearances and he's had vocal support from a number of MPs. Plus the whip was suspended because "he refused to apologise" not because he was racist.

The Labour Party have been pretty ruthless in dealing with anti semitism. You can't get rid of people for "thought crimes" though. You can't assume those Labour activists saw nothing wrong with it. In fact I assume the opposite as someone went to the trouble of covertly recording a private meeting and leaking it.

The hypocrisy of attacking Labour over racism at the moment is astounding.

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 12:55

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:31

Hmmm. OK. Maybe that's to do with where we both hang out. From my perspective, it's the right wing that are now being openly racist, backing violent protesters like Tommy Robinson, and targeting people who won't say what they want (there's no such thing as a trans woman, they are men).

The right are in power more and the totalitarianism is what I hear directly coming out of MPs mouths, not what's inferred based on my politics.

But we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

Where do you hang out? I was outside of a Labour party conference in Liverpool when subject to a deranged and decidedly 'progressive' mob.

Bernie Sanders, the darling of the American Left, was also subject to a demented left wing mob when he came to Liverpool last week. It is not enough he opposes war in the Middle East - he has to utter specific words or else have people " hunt him down" in order to get in his face and scream that he is "a genocide denier". Local MPs have been warned too that they " will be held accountable".

I'm very familiar with Left wing bullying and intmidation where I live; even some of those in the Labour party are at the sharp end of it...which is why some MPs have had to be given extra police protection this week.

If you think the threats are coming only from Islamists who are 'right wing' you surely have to wonder why so many on the Left are hanging out, and joining forces, with them?

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 12:57

What were you doing outside the conference? Protesting yourself perhaps?

duc748 · 29/02/2024 13:00

The Labour Party have been pretty ruthless in dealing with anti semitism.

Really? You think? From the river to the sea?

You can't get rid of people for "thought crimes" though.

The Labour Party has been doing that to women across the country, as you well know.

Swipe left for the next trending thread