Will Labour introduce Self ID & curb free speech?

[Heylo]

I’ve never voted Tory, but as a lesbian woman who plans to have children (and obviously as a woman!) I am and will be part of the three groups most affected by Gender Ideology; women, lesbian and soon I hope a Mother. I am really worried about what happens when Labour takes power. The Tories have been rubbish no arguments there but at least they are finally moving against the steam rolling of Gender Ideology. I’m thinking Labour are not that fiscally different to the Tories and have said they will not cap bankers bonuses and they don’t intend to increase public spending in a significant way.

Really concerned about more gender identity clinics popping up under Labour and Keir Starmer possibly curbing free speech via so - called hate laws (in the feminist circle i run in we all agree this is a euphemism for silencing women about men in female prisons, rape shelters and other areas where women are vulnerable).

wonder what everyone else thinking?

What would stop this GI gravy train is if all those against it, did vote Tory. Yes, it’s hard but it’s for a good reason - because of the message it sends to the other parties. They’d be falling over themselves to guarantee to us that self ID will never happen.

So you do think labour will bring in "hate speech" laws.

What would you like to see included?

Criminalising women who say things like "transwomen are men" perhaps?
Or using pronouns that refer to a person's sex rather than their "gender identity"?
Or maybe someone raising concerns that their child has been groomed online by trans activists?
Or maybe the criminalisation of therapists who say they don't believe in gender identity?
Conversations held in private as well as in public?

Everything but the last one.

Same with Brexit and immigration. In reality, membership of the EU had little to do with illegal immigration or with total immigration, as evidenced by the fact that both have increased since we left. However, the perception of a link was very strong, but no one was allowed to talk about immigration without being labelled a bigot (looking at you, Gordon Brown). New Labour and the media told the public what they should think, and suppressed dissenting views.

Did this make the issue go away? Nope, it:

1. created a wedge issue, which the Tories were able to exploit
2. undermined the public's trust in the Establishment.
3. ultimately led to an over-correction (Brexit), which might have been avoidable, had the public been allowed to express legitimate concerns.

(1) and (2) have already happened with trans issues. (3) may well happen in due course.

As with immigration, some people with strong views on trans issues (both sides) will be animated by prejudice. But it is perfectly possible to have views that conflict with what the Establishment are telling us to think, without being a bigot.

Telling people to stop thinking what they think is not an effective strategy and is ultimately counter-productive.

Ah, the c3po collective is back.

Great 🙄

I mean, I don't agree with the wording, or your characterisation of those measures. But I do genuinely think that they should be covered by hate crime legislation.

Wow! So your vision of a Labour government is pretty authoritarian.

On the plus side, women would still be able to have conversations about the removal of their rights and free speech in private without being criminalised so that's a bonus.

Yes, thanks for the reminder. I have a tendency to take people at face value.

I'm not relishing the prospect of Kier Starmer's Labour Party being in power for lots of reasons, but they'll be better than the current lot on most things and particularly on this, if not actually good.

I'll probably vote Lib Dem, tactically. As I don't live in the UK the outcome won't really affect me anyway

Oh, you can definitely take me at face value.

Having been a teacher and having a daughter who is a teacher I can tell you that without self discipline and established boundaries there can be no learning and classrooms descend into crowd control situations.

That many parents are unable to provide firm boundaries from which their children can learn to manage and control their own behaviours and impusles is part of the problem. Lack of boundaries and self discipline/emotional resiillience and self containment is also a large part of the reason for the surge in mental health issues that young people are suffering from.

People without boundaries and self control are more likley to look to the state or to a leader to provide them. Then you have totalitarianism.

Children need to be taught/shown boundaries. They don't develop them without help.

Excellent post. And for someone to question out loud the need for children to develop boundaries makes you wonder what they say in private.

Said someone who clearly has no children themselves; who is not a teacher,and who understands very little about psychology unless its based on indulging every passing feeling and "finding my truth".

Oh, ‘obsession with boundaries’ is fascistic now?

I do believe that people with extreme authoritarian tendencies exist so I will take you at face value on that score. However, I don't actually consider that the current Labour Party lead by Kier Starmer are so far gone that they would criminalise women for stating facts. Labour have never claimed that they intend to introduce such draconian legislation and it would be a massive overstep of power to bring in laws that outlawed people saying that "transwomen are men". It would also potentially criminalise hundreds of thousands of people and it wouldn't stop people from saying what is patently true.

You have no idea of my professional or academic background. I've worked with children and in education for more than 20 years, in many different types of settings, in different roles, different countries, continents, cultures.

What constitutes appropriate boundaries and discipline varies wildly according to context and is constantly contested. I'm horrified by the current situation in the UK.

I'm definitely not authoritarian. I would rather the state didn't exist, but if must, hate crime legislation is one of its more benign functions.

Living outside the UK to escape its boundaries & discipline. Are you Dr Webberley?

Thank you for that important information.

Conversations held in private as well as in public?

A reminder that the Scottish Hate Crime Bill is now law. Although the police don't seem to be able to implement it.

'It creates an offence of “stirring up” hatred, criminalising utterances that are considered inflammatory or insulting even when they cause no actual harm and are not intended to incite a specific act. And it covers private conversations, even within the home.'

https://www.economist.com/the-world-ahead/2021/11/08/scotlands-new-hate-crime-act-will-have-a-chilling-effect-on-free-speech

Lol. I wish.

Living outside the UK because it's depressing and just generally a ghastly place to live.

And just like that, Scotland became North Korea.

Oh wait...

https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-bill#target4

Scottish Hate Crime Bill. Two Labour MSPs voted against, one abstained. The rest voted in favour.