Joe Lycett

[theDudesmummy]

I had never heard of this guy before today (I am not a fan of stand up comedy) but I do listen to the political podcast The Newsagents, and they had him on as a guest. He sounded like a sensible person until he suddenly started talking complete faux-naïve bollocks about the trans issue. Something about how how boring it would be if everyone in society was expected to be the same, or some such stuff, and therefore anyone who opposes trans rights is being "boring" as well as wrong. Anyone else hear that? Is this guy in general a TRA or just stupid?

There is, however, a middle ground between being vicious towards people who are atypical and saying yes to all the demands of atypical people who think they can shape society round their wants.

I want my son to be free from physical attacks, insults and workplace or housing discrimination, but I do not accept that everyone has to subscribe to his worldview in which he is in some nebulous sense "a woman". If he encroaches on other people's rights, that is not OK.

"Your day to day wouldn't be changed in any meaningful way by being supportive of trans people either? I feel like no-one's would... (except maybe trans people obviously"

The work I have done for the past 20 years has involved working with organisations and people with protected characteristics to find and put in place adjustments that will support inclusion (in education, work and the community). This involves determining what adjustments are needed and whether they are feasible.

Over recent years, there has been a trend towards greater expectations about delivering any requested adjustments without providing evidence of need or evaluating feasibility. This isn't exclusive to TRAs. Other advocacy groups adopt unreasonable stances. What is unique to TRAs is the demand that you view the world the same way as they do or convincingly pretend to.

Most of the individuals with trans identities I work with are vulnerable and overwhelmed. They are petrified of having to confront or think about their sex when out in the world and are totally overwhelmed by the thought of this. This anxiety typically manifests as withdrawal and self harm or anger and aggression.

Clearly, these individuals need support with developing resilience and coping skills. They need to learn to navigate a world where people have different views. They need to know that they can't control how people view them, nor can they expect people to have inauthentic interactions. They need to know that people 'seeing' their natal sex and not 'seeing' gender identity does not mean they disrespect them or wish harm on them.

Perpetuating the myth that people who are not comfortable affirming someone's identity hates the person for having a trans identity and does not view them with positive regard because of it is wicked. I think most people who make these suggestions do so having not applied critical thought to what they are doing. I think some know full well what they are doing and are using it as a pernicious manipulation tactic.

I mean just being tolerant of people. Just being a decent person to other human beings, really. Just not antagonising or going out of your way to be rude to people who aren't impacting you.

People who aren't impacting you.

You think it isn't impacting anyone else?

Weird...

"Clearly, these individuals need support with developing resilience and coping skills. They need to learn to navigate a world where people have different views. They need to know that they can't control how people view them, nor can they expect people to have inauthentic interactions. They need to know that people 'seeing' their natal sex and not 'seeing' gender identity does not mean they disrespect them or wish harm on them. "

This is such an important point.

what if you're a woman boxer and you find yourself in the ring with a man whose average power during a punch will be 162% of yours? (yes, even if he wears a skirt and really, REALLY feels that he's a woman, he's still male, see Mumsnet threads passim ad infinitum and also mammalian biology)

can you point out that he's a man then? or should you get battered to be polite?

(I dunno why I rise to these things really, but the alternative is Posting About Cake, which is apparently very bad)

I'm not personally going to pretend to believe in something I personally believe highly likely to be false, just because it makes some people feel a bit better.

I also don't much like forcing people into boxes. And trans ideology hasn't got rid of the boxes, it's just invented new ones, which in many ways are more restrictive than those of a generation ago.

And if treating a person as if they are the opposite sex to what they objectively are is contributing to negative and direct impacts to me and my family and other women? Are we allowed to treat people as their sex not there preferred sex?

“Some ideas are so stupid that only intellectuals believe them.”

George Orwell

Being supportive of permanently disfiguring young people because talking therapy is apparently bad, and lopping off body parts is the Right Thing To Do is not something I can get on board with, sorry. If speaking out about such things is "being rude" then I'll aim to be the rudest person I know.

I have noticed the number of people who declare they have ‘degrees’ and PhDs who repeat the mantra ‘TWAW’, declare they have read the evidence, yet fail to produce any of that evidence. They produce nothing.

I suspect it is because some people have worked out that it is all based on philosophical theories and that only people who are similarly ‘enlightened’ could possibly understand and agree. I also suspect that many of these have invested heavily in their belief and cannot deal change position without losing face, income and / or friend/family.

I think that the change of wind that this particular belief it being deconstructed piece by piece must be so very very unsafe for them.

I'm not personally going to pretend to believe in something I personally believe highly likely to be false, just because it makes some people feel a bit better.

I also don't much like forcing people into boxes. And trans ideology hasn't got rid of the boxes, it's just invented new ones, which in many ways are more restrictive than those of a generation ago.

This.

Well yeah, I feel like questioning why you would go out of your way to antagonise a trans person for just existing isn't an entirely strange thing to ask. Just existing in a space with someone who is trans is not going to impact you if you just ignore them rather than starting a conflict. I'm a trans guy, and I promise you that I'm just trying to live my life without starting arguments just in any unprompted interaction, so if you avoid interacting with trans people about the fact they're trans, it likely just won't come up unless you become friends to them, which absolutely no-one is forcing you to do. Also, my original post was just a response about how no-one's day to day lives are impacted by trans people, which I feel like is just clearly true.

I feel like that isn't even the point I was making. You don't have to support them, just tolerance. People are human beings first rather than any gender things, but I feel like that's not being recognised. All I'm saying is that you can be civil and polite to trans people, because they're people, regardless of any political ideas you hold.

I'll be civil and polite as long as I don't have to lie about their sex.

That's just not even about the point I was making. I didn't bring beliefs into that post, I was just replying with a simple fact that no-one's day to day life is impacted by trans people, as that's what was relevant to the post I was replying to.

I just feel like you're strawmanning my argument a little here. I didn't bring up sports at all in my post, because I haven't done the research (HRT - which is a requirement for trans people in sporting competitions to have been on for at least a few years, I believe - impacting body composition, for example.) to feel qualified to have an opinion on, let alone talk about, mainly because I never intend to get into sports, so it would never concern me. Most trans women are not in sports, and most women in general are not in sports either, especially competitively, as it's just a small minority of the population that get into that sort of career, so it wasn't a fringe case I was going to talk about.
Therefore, what I was talking about was simple interactions with trans people in average life.

I didn't intend for it to be such a controversial statement that we should be courteous and tolerant of other human beings, regardless of how your beliefs or political ideologies may class, I just think that it's important to be polite to other people during normal interactions.

If yours and their idea of civility is that I use their personally curated language as a minimum, then that is ‘civil’ and ‘polite’ one way only.

If you mean that we don’t have to change our language to suit them or treat them as the sex that they are not, has anyone said they would not do this?

They are people with a philosophical belief and maybe belong to a political movement. Therefore they get treated as any other person with a philosophical/political belief. Ie. No different treatment to any other person needed.

1. it's not HRT. No woman needs to 'replace' testosterone and no man needs to 'replace' oestrogen

2. sport isn't a fringe case. lots of women play sport. why aren't they important in your world?

3. what is your definition of tolerant? is it pretending that I can't tell what sex someone is in a situation where sex is relevant, e.g. when using a single sex toilet?

4. do you see that there may be connection between pretending some men are women in relatively low stakes situations (e.g. single sex toilets), and finding ourselves in the current situation where people are pretending men who have raped women are women and locking women up with them in women's prisons?

5. have you really thought about this?

Here is a thread with lots and lots of the information that shows that regardless of any ‘treatment’ with hormones, male people who have been through any degree of male puberty still retain pubertal advantage.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

And it is imperative to know this information also for safeguarding issues where male people can physically overpower female people.

And it has fuck all to do with their choice of sports as a ‘career’, it impacts every level of sport from grassroots up.

Trans people have successfully lobbied for sex marker changes on birth certificates, passports, driving licences. They have successfully lobbied to change the sex education material in schools to claim that its possible to change sex. They have lobbied to allow man the right to access womens prisons, hospital wards, public changing rooms, sports.

Its a bit late to pretend all you want is tolerance.

If you think no-one's day to day life is impacted by trans people you must think that parents of trans people (and spouses, siblings and children) do not exist. My wife and I have been heavily impacted, most of all because our son is behaving as if we are hateful because we have a different understanding of sex and gender. There are ripple effects throughout our wider family. I know many people in a similar situation.

And it is an ignorant person (not you ROGC) who assumes that ‘no body’ is impacted. For every person who has a declared gender identity, there are many impacted. For every teenager or child, there are whole schools and even just directly impacted is that child’s friends and their family who deal with the impacts of that friendship. And if someone tries to convince me that no other family is impacted, it just shows immense ignorance or denial or both.

Of course it impacts other people.

Setting aside all of the other big picture stuff others have mentioned, which are wide-ranging and disturbing, let's bring it down to personal interactions.

Every interaction with a person who identifies as trans is based on deceit. Coupled with the threat of being fired for mis-stepping it is exhausting. And it's a lie that other people aren't affected by someone "just existing".

Your posts seem to be oblivious of fhe direct impacts of the demands that many people, particularly male people, have made on society in general. I think you seem rather determined to dismiss these impacts and you seem to have the opinion that nothing you demand by way of ‘tolerance’ impacts society.

Do you expect people to change their language to accommodate you? That is just the start.