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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Human Milk" ffs

285 replies

SecondUsername4me · 18/02/2024 10:28

Not linking to DM (clicks) but an article on the app today talks about how one NHS trust has said that hormone fuelled milk produced by transwomen is equally as good for baby as breastmilk produced by women.

The director says the terminology Human Milk should be used as both milk types are equal.

In the letter, the Medical Director claims 'there is clear and overwhelming evidence that human milk is the ideal food for infants', referring to both breast milk and the 'induced lactation' of biological men

Ffs these poor babies.

The £££££ that has been thrown in faking shit for men so they can cosplay womanhood while actual disease and illness is left to fundraise for its own research is sickening.

OP posts:
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LimeViewer · 18/02/2024 11:17

How can it possibly be ethical to fund this but not breastfeeding support for mums? The nhs is so so badly mismanaged. It's not lacking in funds but in sense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:18

I wouldn't have a reference if they are indeed identical but I'm being told that studies have found they are not but not where i can find these studies.

Studies haven't been done apart from the arguably flawed studies under discussion that purport to make a case that male breastfeeding is natural and fine.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:20

We're all dancing around the elephant in the room here, as well, obviously.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 18/02/2024 11:22

BeautifulViews · 18/02/2024 10:56

@MacaroonMacaron Surely all breastmilk can be described as 'a hormone-laden cocktail of secretions'. If induced milk has the same chemical makeup and nutritional value as natural milk, what's the problem?

That babies shouldn't be used to give adult males the physical sensations of lactation and feeding, perhaps?

Datun · 18/02/2024 11:22

wubwubwub · 18/02/2024 11:11

That money and research should go to ACTUAL women struggling to feed their own babies. The breastfeeding support groups are all closed down round here due to lack of funding, women aren't supported, they're made to feel like failures, feel like they can't go to GP for help etc

But here we are are, funding this to fucking self obsessed men who want to feed babies full of chemically induced milk so they can fulfil a fucking sick fantasy of their own.
Forcing a baby to suck a man's breast tissue to get the essential nourishment they need to survive and thrive, all so the man can pretend he is a woman is seriously fucked up.

It is. But not only that, you have the NHS endorsing it.

wubwubwub · 18/02/2024 11:22

LimeViewer · 18/02/2024 11:17

How can it possibly be ethical to fund this but not breastfeeding support for mums? The nhs is so so badly mismanaged. It's not lacking in funds but in sense.

Because we're mere women. And a man pretending to be a woman is clearly more important, because they're a man.

If they really believed that they were truly women, they'd be supporting women in breastfeeding, they'd be supporting women ...but they're not, they're supporting men breastfeeding, they're supporting men to do unnatural things to make men feel better about themselves.

If "TWAW" then all this bullshit about men breastfeeding wouldn't happen. Because, they would accept that, part of being a woman, is that... sometimes you CAN'T breastfeed your baby. Not your fault, just pure biology/genetics. So why are you pumping your body full of chemicals to do this? A lot of actual women can't perform this function... So Transwomen should accept this.

It's part of being a woman....

Oh wait, no, because they're actually men, entitled, arrogant, inconsiderate, selfish, self absorbed arseholes, who don't want to actually be a woman with all that it entails.

what makes be so cross, is 99% of men pretending to be women, just want a quiet life, and weirdos who want to fulfil their weird fantasies are giving them all a bad name!

BeautifulViews · 18/02/2024 11:22

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:08

So this doctor believes that a high level of testosterone in the milk COULD be a problem but that nobody has really researched it. It's clear they do need to do more research as there's not much out there!

wubwubwub · 18/02/2024 11:23

LimeViewer · 18/02/2024 11:17

How can it possibly be ethical to fund this but not breastfeeding support for mums? The nhs is so so badly mismanaged. It's not lacking in funds but in sense.

It's not ethical. It's disgusting.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:24

what makes be so cross, is 99% of men pretending to be women, just want a quiet life

I'm sure there must be the odd one, but sorry, I don't believe it's 99% or anything like that.

MacaroonMacaron · 18/02/2024 11:24

LimeViewer · 18/02/2024 11:17

How can it possibly be ethical to fund this but not breastfeeding support for mums? The nhs is so so badly mismanaged. It's not lacking in funds but in sense.

Well exactly. Breastfeeding support is almost entirely charity led, provided by volunteers. Milk banking similar, when I donated in Oxford it was a group of older women who drove around picking up donations. We have one milk bank in Scotland (Glasgow) to cover the whole country. It's hugely underfunded and what IS very clear is that giving donor breastmilk to prem babies whose mums can't breastfeed them can help protect against serious gut conditions like necrotising enterocolitis, which can be life threatening.
https://www.bliss.org.uk/parents/about-your-baby/medical-conditions/necrotising-entercolitis-nec

I would love to see an interview with a consultant neonatal paediatrician about what is the gold standard of feeding for these pre babies - the list would be mother's own milk, then donor breastmilk, then special formula. I bet "donor milk from a transwoman" wouldn't even feature. Because they ARE focused on the health of their patients, not the feels of men.

wubwubwub · 18/02/2024 11:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:24

what makes be so cross, is 99% of men pretending to be women, just want a quiet life

I'm sure there must be the odd one, but sorry, I don't believe it's 99% or anything like that.

I'm just saying that most of the men who struggle to accept their sex are just getting on with it. Not trying to enter women's spaces, not trying to be in sexual/domestic abuse centres etc

But the scary minority are ruining one for women. :(

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 11:25

BeautifulViews · 18/02/2024 11:22

So this doctor believes that a high level of testosterone in the milk COULD be a problem but that nobody has really researched it. It's clear they do need to do more research as there's not much out there!

Why should any baby be potentially subjected to high doses of testosterone to find this out?

Who benefits from that? The infants?

wubwubwub · 18/02/2024 11:27

Yes, why are human beings being used in these kinds of experiments?

To what end?

MacaroonMacaron · 18/02/2024 11:33

wubwubwub · 18/02/2024 11:27

Yes, why are human beings being used in these kinds of experiments?

To what end?

The most vulnerable human beings who cannot advocate for themselves and need doctors and their parents to do it for them.

BeautifulViews · 18/02/2024 11:34

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 11:25

Why should any baby be potentially subjected to high doses of testosterone to find this out?

Who benefits from that? The infants?

I'm not saying they should but nobody is saying that have been either. The retired dermatologist writing the article was concerned that the testosterone level of the subject was not tested regularly so may have been an issue, they had no idea. It's also doesn't appear to be a study that tested the the milk which seems a bit lax. The baby was exclusively fed for 6 weeks and was reported to be healthy and growing normally though.

Oneofthesurvivors · 18/02/2024 11:41

Isn't this essentially medical experiments on infants?

PonyPatter44 · 18/02/2024 11:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Chariothorses · 18/02/2024 11:44

The complaint was from the children of transitioners group, the support group for children of transpeople. They raised safeguarding concerns for babies whose dads have sexual fetishes
https://childrenoftransitioners.org/2023/07/15/six-children/ child protection from sexual grooming, the drug content of the secretions and NHS failure to address the safeguarding risks in the policy. Fathers are never mums -it's a child welfare issue(note to mumsnet -UK supreme court and ECHR linkhttps://childrenoftransitioners.org/2023/04/10/paperwork/

Paperwork

It’s been an important week for children of transitioners in the UK and Europe, as the European Court of Human Rights has ruled that trans people do not have the right to alter their child&#8…

https://childrenoftransitioners.org/2023/04/10/paperwork

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:44

The baby was exclusively fed for 6 weeks and was reported to be healthy and growing normally though.

From the review I posted:

Breast milk is the unique nourishment lactating mothers produce in order to sustain their own babies and protect them from disease in the weeks and months after birth, when the infant immune system is still not fully developed. First milk is called colostrum (birth – 4 days), which is a thick, yellowish fluid full of fat, vitamins and particularly rich in antibodies. Colostrum changes to a more calorific transitional milk (4 days – 2 weeks), which is high in fat and vitamins, and after that it becomes mature milk which is 90% water.
Maternal antibodies are first passed via the placenta to the baby during the last three months of pregnancy, and after the baby is born, he or she continues to receive antibodies through breast milk. As mother and baby share both the genetics and the environment, these antibodies are customised by the mother’s body to offer an individually tailored passive immunity and protection from the pathogens the baby is most likely to encounter.
Therefore, I found it strange that Reisman & Goldstein made no attempt to analyse the composition of their male patient’s drug-induced nipple discharge, considering that they talked at length about the benefits of breastfeeding on mother and baby, none of which were applicable to their male patient or indeed the infant he, allegedly, fed.
Be that as it may, as a consequence of a cocktail of drugs and a breast pump, this patient started to “lactate”, eventually producing 8 oz of nipple discharge daily, two weeks prior to the birth of the baby.
Although we have no further details about the volume, the study claims that whatever fluid was produced, it was the sole source of this baby’s nourishment for 6 weeks. After this time, the patient reportedly started to supplement with 4–8 oz of Similac brand formula daily.
The authors gave no indication that they observed this alleged “breastfeeding”, or that they met the mother or the infant. They did state that “the child’s pediatrician reported that the child’s growth, feeding, and bowel habits were developmentally appropriate”, but offered no corroborating evidence.
Considering that a 5 lb baby needs about 12 oz of breast milk or formula a day, and more as the baby’s weight increases, it is extremely unlikely that any infant would survive for 6 weeks on 8 oz alone. Furthermore, mothers who are unable to breastfeed know only too well how important it is to use adequate amounts of baby formula. Failing to do so can result in serious harm to the baby.
I have no evidence that the baby who was allegedly subject to this experiment was harmed in any way. However, there are so many omissions, unknowns and missing data that I cannot help but ask, why was a trans-identified man held to a drastically different standard of infant care than actual mothers?
That this experiment was conducted by a Transgender Clinic, which neither had licence, nor expertise, to oversee the breastfeeding of a newborn, only adds to my concerns regarding ethics, safety and bias in this study.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:45

A key takeaway

That this experiment was conducted by a Transgender Clinic, which neither had licence, nor expertise, to oversee the breastfeeding of a newborn, only adds to my concerns regarding ethics, safety and bias in this study.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 11:48

BeautifulViews · 18/02/2024 11:34

I'm not saying they should but nobody is saying that have been either. The retired dermatologist writing the article was concerned that the testosterone level of the subject was not tested regularly so may have been an issue, they had no idea. It's also doesn't appear to be a study that tested the the milk which seems a bit lax. The baby was exclusively fed for 6 weeks and was reported to be healthy and growing normally though.

There was absolutely no follow up on that infant reported. So who know what future issues that the infant had.

And the case study seems to be factually inconsistent. It has been recorded that the amounts that these male people produce is too small, yet that one case study stated that the infant was healthy. How? Either the infant was not healthy, or was receiving additional nutrition or the maximum quantity recorded is incorrect.

While I understand you are saying there should be more studies, to do so would have to be considered unethical because of the unknown interactions of all the drugs with breast milk. Including testosterone. Because it isn’t just testosterone, it is the testosterone suppressants, it is the potentially different ability of the male body to screen out other drugs and hormones. And then there has to be a human infant to then be tested, and checked for their life for unexpected negative side effects.

And all for what? All to centre a male experience?

None of this about centring the infant with their own mother’s milk. And the next best thing is milk from a screened female donor. Using any child as a guinea pig for centering a male experience surely cannot be ethical.

Chariothorses · 18/02/2024 11:49

@Ereshkigalangcleg
'why was a trans-identified man held to a drastically different standard of infant care than actual mothers?'
Yes exactly. Children of transpeople should be safeguarded like every other child. If the drug induced secretions were better for babies than natural or formula milk every child would be given them. But it's only Cots as social workers are too scared to raise safeguarding concerns in this situation - as per the SWE/ Rachel Mead case.

Saschka · 18/02/2024 11:52

SecondUsername4me · 18/02/2024 10:41

I'd assume an element of using the expression "human milk" was as an alternative for using the word breast, in some attempt to be polite. Not as a catch all for fake milk induced in a man's chest.

Yep, the NHS breastfeeding guide I got with DS used the words “human milk” and “Mummy milk”. I found human milk far less offensive!

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 11:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/02/2024 11:44

The baby was exclusively fed for 6 weeks and was reported to be healthy and growing normally though.

From the review I posted:

Breast milk is the unique nourishment lactating mothers produce in order to sustain their own babies and protect them from disease in the weeks and months after birth, when the infant immune system is still not fully developed. First milk is called colostrum (birth – 4 days), which is a thick, yellowish fluid full of fat, vitamins and particularly rich in antibodies. Colostrum changes to a more calorific transitional milk (4 days – 2 weeks), which is high in fat and vitamins, and after that it becomes mature milk which is 90% water.
Maternal antibodies are first passed via the placenta to the baby during the last three months of pregnancy, and after the baby is born, he or she continues to receive antibodies through breast milk. As mother and baby share both the genetics and the environment, these antibodies are customised by the mother’s body to offer an individually tailored passive immunity and protection from the pathogens the baby is most likely to encounter.
Therefore, I found it strange that Reisman & Goldstein made no attempt to analyse the composition of their male patient’s drug-induced nipple discharge, considering that they talked at length about the benefits of breastfeeding on mother and baby, none of which were applicable to their male patient or indeed the infant he, allegedly, fed.
Be that as it may, as a consequence of a cocktail of drugs and a breast pump, this patient started to “lactate”, eventually producing 8 oz of nipple discharge daily, two weeks prior to the birth of the baby.
Although we have no further details about the volume, the study claims that whatever fluid was produced, it was the sole source of this baby’s nourishment for 6 weeks. After this time, the patient reportedly started to supplement with 4–8 oz of Similac brand formula daily.
The authors gave no indication that they observed this alleged “breastfeeding”, or that they met the mother or the infant. They did state that “the child’s pediatrician reported that the child’s growth, feeding, and bowel habits were developmentally appropriate”, but offered no corroborating evidence.
Considering that a 5 lb baby needs about 12 oz of breast milk or formula a day, and more as the baby’s weight increases, it is extremely unlikely that any infant would survive for 6 weeks on 8 oz alone. Furthermore, mothers who are unable to breastfeed know only too well how important it is to use adequate amounts of baby formula. Failing to do so can result in serious harm to the baby.
I have no evidence that the baby who was allegedly subject to this experiment was harmed in any way. However, there are so many omissions, unknowns and missing data that I cannot help but ask, why was a trans-identified man held to a drastically different standard of infant care than actual mothers?
That this experiment was conducted by a Transgender Clinic, which neither had licence, nor expertise, to oversee the breastfeeding of a newborn, only adds to my concerns regarding ethics, safety and bias in this study.

Thanks Eresh.

I remember reading the study itself and feeling sick with the number of glaring omissions it had. The complete lack of analysis and integrity of the information.

StealthSpinach · 18/02/2024 11:55

I’d like to know if the TW and other supporters of chemically induced male nipple secretions for defenceless and totally dependent human infants would drink the chemically induced product squeezed out of a bull’s nipple when the bull was given drugs to induce lactation?