Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

yes akkakk

Plus. Where has been the well publicised and sponsored media campaigns about making male single sex spaces safer and better for all male people?

I have asked this of several male posters who insist that they should be allowed to use female humans as safety shields ie. use the female toilets for 'safety'. And not one of them supports such a campaign at all.

Why? Because this is not about 'safety'. This is about entitlement, validation and quite likely some other reason that is not in the interest of female people to be exposed to.

As a former HCP I have seen hundreds of genitalia. Do I want to share toilets or changing rooms with men? Hell no!
I hope that most trans people would not pose a threat to women but even one attack (physical or otherwise) is one too many.
We need to have single sex spaces and I doubt anyone could convince me otherwise.

Not really thought much about it tbh but the unisex rooms in Primark etc. don’t bother me but then it’s all cubicles.

exactly this!

to suggest that it is about safety is wrong - where are the stats showing that there is a safety issue?

I have travelled widely around the world and in some very poor places, I have never found a men's public loos where I have had safety concerns, I am sure there are some, but in those instances I would simply find a restaurant or hotel or shopping centre where there is unlikely to be an issue...

even if it were about safety - the answer is not to have men in women's spaces - it would be to make the men's spaces safer, if there are issues, sort out the issues, don't create new ones...

I buy a lot of my clothes in Asda (don't judge) and the changing rooms in our very large store are male and female shared but obviously with separate cubicles. It's never bothered me in the slightest. I don't feel more likely to get attacked in the changing rooms than I do walking home from work. Actually I feel less likely to get attacked in the changing rooms. I've also lived in France for long periods and the loos there have always been mostly communal so, again, it doesn't bother me.

Just saying....

single sex toilets all the way.
Aside from the many arguments around safety, privacy and dignity... it also frustrates me that the consideration put into having unisex toilets in schools, completely ignores the effect this has on things like -

• access for children who are disabled and have complex needs (eg - inability for door to open outwards, if adult needs to get in to child, big heavy door and toilet that opens onto corridor means adult cant support child easily)
• the fact that when boys are learning to pee, they piss all over the seat meaning the girls have to then sit on the pissy seats.
• the individual toilets that have sinks in them and big heavy floor to ceiling doors are really difficult to access for tiny children (because of the weight of the doors)
• the individual toilets that have sinks in them and big heavy floor to ceiling doors are a nightmare when kids fuck about... blocking sinks etc.

they are really really impractical.

Has your local Primark finally converted the cubicles to full doors?

Because mine had seating directly infront of the cubicles with curtains. I was waiting for someone and sitting directly in front of their cubicle while they tried on clothes. We assumed it was female only, there was absolutely no signage otherwise. A man came and sat and waited for someone up the corridor. The issue was the woman in the cubicle directly in front of him, beside the one in front of me, was partially open. Old curtains, no way to attach them closed. He could see her getting changed. I jumped up and closed it, but he had already seen.

I complained and was told by email that I was effectively transphobic because I complained because the change was made to accommodate trans people. Then the camera incidents started to be publicised.

If that doesn't bother you, great. I cannot imagine how I would feel knowing a man was seated out front of my cubicle watching.

Men don't belong in women's spaces, no debate.

Absolutely, NO men even those with a shiny piece of paper that falsifies their sex, none absolutely none.

Go in the toilets and changing rooms for your biological sex and if you don't like that or want to then find a solution that does NOT involve using opposite sex spaces.

My local swimming pool is used by schools during the day. There's more than one pool, so the changing rooms are used by both school children and general public at the same time. There aren't enough cubicles to accommodate the girls even if they share, so some always end up in the communal space. How can anyone think it would be appropriate for them to be changing in a space alongside a male? Anyone who thinks it would be fine if there were enough cubicles, where is the space and money for that going to come from? It won't ever be a solution for that building.

MrsSkylerWhite you've obviously not heard about the many incidents that have been reportedly taken place in Primark changing rooms.

Based on how creepy a lot of trans women seem I wouldn't be surprised if your average trans woman is more of a threat to women than your average "cis" man.

No, absolutely not.
The men at my gym tend to use the disabled loo for some reason, instead of the men’s, and their wee smells very different to women’s.

I accidentally went into the men's once with my toddler dd because I stupidly misread the sign on the door. Walked past a guy peeing in a urinal and it still didn't clock 😂 anyway... couldn't believe how disgusting the men's toilets were. Piss all over the floor and stale urine smell.

Anecdotally, I find a fair number of women don't care much about public washrooms, but they are much less likely to be flexible about change rooms.

That being said, I have heard some say all changing rooms should have booths or curtains - often they are people who don't want to be naked in a change room even with other women. So they don't really are about male people in their either.

Personally, I do think there are some set ups for store changing cubicles that are fine with a unisex set up, especially where there is an attendant. The Old Navy near me is like that, no one is coming out partially dressed or anything because it's basically open in the middle of the store, and there is always a clerk working there too.

But change rooms for pools and gyms generally aren't like that.

I’m not going to engage further because clearly you are unwilling to hear the experiences of others - I will however leave it with the reminder that many of these same arguments were trotted out when desegregation came about. I only hope that one day society will look back at your prejudices with the same degree of horror.

Well maybe I’ve never been to a nice enough pool but every pool I’ve been to - sex segregated changing or unisex changing - you shower with your swimsuit on. Never in my 34 years have I seen someone take the swimsuit off and shower naked.

For the gym changing room it is sex segregated, the gym I use has cubicles for showering and cubicles for changing. I wrap a towel round myself to walk the few steps from the shower cubicle to the changing cubicle. And again, nobody is walking around naked in the gym I use. Nobody is chatting much either. Everyone just wants to get washed up and go home.
The men’s changing is all open plan, with an open row of showers so I guess they assume men are less self conscious than women.

But I’m using council gym/pool so maybe not fancy enough for the warm free flowing camaraderie that apparently goes on somewhere else.

I don’t and no-one I knows does either.

Ah, the old argument that one thing is just like another, completely unrelated, thing.

Instead of providing evidence to prove why the first thing, that works perfectly well, should be changed to suit a small minority.

desegregation (assuming you are referring to segregating based on race and the process of stopping that) was logical because there is no need to have people of different races separated - it is as logical as separating everyone with blue eyes from those with brown - irrelevant, never needed and therefore indeed discriminatory and racist - exacerbated by the fact that segregation was never equal facilities...

separating male and female - 101 reasons to do so, none of which are discriminatory...

and you can not discriminate against a 'trans woman' by telling them to use male spaces - they are male.

you can not be prejudiced against 'trans women' by expecting them to use the facilities already set up for them - they are male, so these facilities are the male ones...

the only basis on which you could ever argue any form of discrimination would be if a 'trans woman' was actually a woman - but as everyone knows and has known for 1,000s of years, you are born male or female and you can never change... so that is physically and biologically impossible - so where is the prejudice...

Gosh IMBCRound2, did you just portray the need for female single sex spaces to remain single sex as being akin to racism?

So, apparently, we are not just transphobic but akin to racist. For stating that male people do not lose any of there propensity to commit sex related offences with any stage of transition - therefore transition is no basis for allowing a male person into female single sex spaces.

If you cannot evidence why other women should consider your opinion to have any credibility, then I think that shows readers that you have nothing at all to contribute except emotional manipulation of others to convince them. Well done for presenting such a well thought out position. I think we will take it on board that you have no consideration for women and girls, and just want to make some male people feel better. Because... reasons... thanks.

You know what makes me angry. The discrimination against cis-gender women!

The YMCA in America would not allow my child to change in the women's change room with me past his 6th birthday. I ignored this because he was developmentally delayed and couldn't undress or dress alone. And he was terrified!!! PEOPLE COMPLAINED. We had to change in a half torn TENT on the edge of the pool or in the women's bathroom because there were no family rooms.

But a TRANS-woman CAN, grown-man size cock and balls and all, change in the same change room my son could not.

Tell me, I'm crazy.

And yet, in gyms in my past, it was standard to be naked in a communal area. No cubicles. Particularly after swimming. In all my own 38 years of going swimming and going to the gym. Fuck. Cubicles would have been a luxury.

So, just because you haven't experienced it, why the fuck do you think other women have not. Women have been saying that this is their standard gym / pool access on this board for years. Did you just think they all were lying? Just out of what? hate?

I get your anger @cremebrulait I really do

But there's no such thing as "cis-gender"