Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

I don't care one jot what gender people want to be or refer to themselves as but my problem is that in my 12 year old daughters year there is a child born a boy that has now decided that they are a girl (changed name to a girls name and wears girls clothing) This person who has male genitalia is allowed to do PE with the girls and get changed with the girls in the girls changing room and use the girls loos. IMO this is wrong as none of the girls are happy with this arrangement and are actually quite fearful of the situation. The school are causing a lot of young girls a lot of stress just to accommodate one persons demands

A friend who can abit of a tiger mother / blinkered where her young sons were concerned went into the men’s changing with her lad at swimming. Several men complained officially so I don’t think men love it eithet.

I don't but o also don't support any man doing it. The sex that person "feels " they are is irrelevant and offending patterns of MtF individuals are the same as males. So hard pass from me.

Any prejudice against someone is not nice - however this is not a prejudice...

Men in male spaces
Women in female spaces

not tricky to understand - so does that prejudice anyone - no, everyone is born either male or female, -> has access to a space, so there is no discrimination.

There is no logical reason why someone who is a 'transwoman' needs to go into a female space - their only excuse they could offer would be that they don't feel 'safe' in the men's space - how deeply ironic and insensitive - because that is exactly why they should not be in a female space as they are a man in a female space.

no idea what is meant by 'cis-men' - there is no such thing - you are either man or woman / male or female - there is nothing else, that is biology / science / immutable.

So to put it correctly - if a man goes into a female space...
ahhh - well that is exactly the discussion, because someone who identifies as a trans woman is a man.

It doesn't matter how you dress it up / what words you use / how you wish to define or identify yourself - a man is a man and a woman is a woman - it really doesn't get more basic than that... pretending that some men are women and therefore are allowed into female spaces is a lie designed simply to give those creepy people access to a space where they should not be, and the only reasons are nefarious.

and equally, sorry, but you are not welcome in the men's spaces - if I am in the men's loos and a woman comes in - that puts me at risk of accusations etc. - the men's loos are for men. If there is a queue then the answer is a better ratio of loos for men / women, not people using the wrong loos.

and you might wish to understand the true meaning of transphobia - phobia means to be scared of something... ;)

I could add, of course, that I also firmly believe there's a need to accommodate trans people, and, as such, am strongly for additive unisex loos / third spaces etc.

But, in the absence of these, I think it's hard to argue that women aren't losing something really quite significant because of this shifting social contract, without debate, wide informed consent, or even, in many cases, clear knowledge of this shift to permit informed decision-making in response to it.

Just going to repeat this request:

Can posters please provide the evidence that the risk of male people with a trans identity is lower than the rest of the male UK population for safeguarding. Because if you cannot provide this evidence, all you have is your own 'feelings' on this.

What is the specific differences between male people who have transitioned and all other male people that means that they can come into a female single sex space?

Please. Put the evidence up that convinced you that women and girls should accept some male people into their single sex spaces.

My need for sex segregated spaces, which for safety reasons I'm often entitled to by law

=

'transphobia is absolutely vile'

//

Actually happy to wear that badge if my desire to protect women is more important than pandering to a minority of men who demand I validate their fiction.

Surely the onus is on those who want a change to provide evidence that the new toilets will be as safe as the old ones?

But, in the absence of these, I think it's hard to argue that women aren't losing something really quite significant because of this shifting social contract, without debate, wide informed consent, or even, in many cases, clear knowledge of this shift to permit informed decision-making in response to it.

it's because we are. Take a thread like this; on the surface it’s about toilets & changing rooms but really it’s about far more than that.

if women’s toilets & changing rooms are ok for men to come into because #bekind , they just want to pee/I don’t care/ then why shouldn’t men have other things for women too?

rape survivors group for women? How do you exclude men when you’ve opened up spaces like changing rooms?

how do you keep men out of women’s sports or programmes designed to improve women’s representation in STEM when you’ve already given up single sex spaces like toilets?

every single inch given to men has been used to take the proverbial mile

no thank you

we want our stuff back

You mean back decades ago when some male doctors told male people that they should use the female single sex spaces? Yeah. They never did the research then. Strange that they have not done the research since either?

For those who seem to have never noticed that women use single sex toilets for other purposes other than just peeing, do you just never get out? Or do you live in areas with wonderful modern facilities and not old buildings with limited facilities?

Just a month ago I went into the pub and came across a woman washing red wine out of her shirt and she was just in a bra and jeans. I have also had to do this recently with flooding periods where I was there washing a skirt (while still on) that was twisted around to the front and I was drying it under the drier.

I go to M&S female toilets and it is full of women who don't use the disabled toilet, they leave it to those who are disabled, and have doors wide open with their prams. I have done this myself.

What are we, women with these needs, supposed to do now? Just not go out unless we call ahead to find a place with a female single sex toilet?

I am curious why posters who don't seem to have ever had additional needs in the toilet or ever suffered from flooding periods cannot understand that other women DO have these needs.

What do they suggest?

Oh. And if your answer is, well that is YOUR issue to deal with... what the fuck do you think single sex toilets were fucking for in the first fucking place.

I see that the posters in favour of men having absolute freedoms to use women's spaces have nothing more to say than 'but I'm ok with it'.

Still nothing about the women who are excluded from anything so men can have everything. Is this due to just not caring about other women and their equality and needs so long as men are happy? Or racism/ableism/religious intolerance that those women aren't ones who matter?

Yep - here's another one:

club toilets as the only place to escape pushy men, knowing they couldn't/wouldn't follow you in.

Another resource gone.

(Reply to Helle at 1626: fast-moving thread!)

Now you see I've never needed a toilet for any other reason, haven't really seen that many women doing anything extra, and I rarely go out, and yet I can still understand that it does happen and should be taken into account. It's really not rocket science and I fail to see why there are still women who are utterly oblivious. But then there seem to be so many people these days who don't care about so many things until they're personally affected... The 'I'm alright Jack' school of thought.

Yup. I'm at that age now when I don't care what accusations people want to throw at me - they'll get the response 'do I look like I give a shit?'

"And if your answer is, well that is YOUR issue to deal with"

Plus, if this is OUR issue to deal with the loss of our privacy, safety and dignity, why was it not those male people's issue to deal with their own needs without negatively impacting female people's needs?

Not one person has ever, ever answered that question either.

Except for many scenarios that women and girls use the toilets require privacy in that communal space that you have just opened up.

Toilets such as this would have meant that I was not able to take my baby out to do the necessary shopping when there was no 'family room'. Nor would I have been able to wash out my shirt at work when my breast milk exploded because I had to stay back and couldn't express.

You say 'nobody has an issue with it' at work. Where do the women and men who spill food and drinks go to clean off? Do all mothers returning to work have to be no longer breastfeeding?

Or do you also have single sex toilets available that only female people can use?

@Helleofabore
At my work the row of unisex toilets are
really big, each has a sink, sanitary station and a fold out chair. I've had to change into different clothes before due to my period., the toilets are much bigger than say a a changing room cubicle.
When my son was a child I always hated the fact that my choice was either send him in alone to a men's public toilet or put up with a load of eye rolling by just taking him into the women's with me.. My husband felt the same when using public toilets with my step daughter, This at least gets rid off that problem but isn't for everyone.

Wow, you must have luxury toilets! They sound amazing.

Of course, that is not going to be available in many places. And I definitely understand the child situation. The ideal would be to have a third space, but those are rejected or some determined males have stated they will not respect female people and use the other spaces. (Because why should they 'out' themselves is their answer when asked on MN threads.)

Loos have cubicles so I don't care about that.

Having been seated on a loo minding my own business, I looked up to see a man looking over the partition from the cubicle next door.

I also saw a man queuing for a women’s public toilet in Hammersmith this week smirking and clearly enjoying the discomfort of the teenage girls who were also waiting.

For every post op transgender (so called) male to female, there are 100s of plain perverts or Autogynephiles.

A man is a man is a man. They can all fuck off.

Hold on (in the nicest sense!) quite agree, but... in addition, where has anyone actually identified these imaginary needs 'trans women' are supposed to have which can only be met by using female spaces?!

A 'trans woman' is a man.
As a man they do not have any needs, physical or otherwise which require them to be in female spaces - they do not have periods, so have no need of the sanitary bins etc. what does a female space have that a male space has which they specifically need?! (never having been in a female loo, I assume that they are full of plush armchairs / gin bars / magazine racks - which explains the queues outside 😁)

So, not only do they not need to be there, but women need them to not be there - really isn't difficult...

*
okay - let's try to identify these needs...

• They need to be validated as being a woman - mmm, nope, they are men
• They need to be protected from nasty men - mmm, great reason which is exactly why they (men) should not be in female spaces
• Women's loos are nicer - well, (in the absence of gin bars) this could be made equal by keeping the chaps' loos nicer which is partly their responsibility...
• They need access to sanitary facilities - nope, they don't - they are men, they can't biologically have a period.

.... sorry, help me out here I am struggling to think of any valid reason why a man (even if identifying as a 'trans woman') needs to be in a female space - possibly because there isn't one single reason...

so back to the quoted post above from Helleofabore - if there are no needs for trans women, there is even more reason why the needs of women should be the priority...

Have you raised a complaint with the school?

This is awful. Just awful.

What does this teach girls about consent if they can't say no to this male.

@Helleofabore

I think if open space unisex toilets are going to work they need to have the standard and facilities like I've described in my work place. Or like you've suggested a third space.

😂 In short, yes!! 💯

Yep.

But usually we are told it is safety. We keep being told that they need to be kept safe. Yet, when you apply that to the male category as a whole, which other male people should then access female single sex spaces for the same safety issues. Gender non conforming male people? Gay men and boys? Weak male people? Elderly male people? Which other male people should be allowed to use female people as a human shield?

That is so wrong 😠. Those poor girls.

They are being taught to put up and shut up, just like women used to be told before women’s rights improved.

And Kier Starmer, the next leader of our country, thinks that 1% of women have penises.

The suffragettes will be rolling in their graves.