Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

oh but I already have “but women will get attacked/raped anyway so why bother trying to keep men out” ticked off the bingo card!

and single sex spaces are pro women not anti trans HTH

JFC,we're back to the 'it happens anyway so let's make it easier for them' argument.

I’m sure “but violent lesbians” will turn up soon @WickedSerious 🤪

My issue isn't with "creepy cis-men". It's with all creepy men, whatever they're wearing. Therefore they all need to stay out. Problem solved.

I definitely do not support it when it comes to changing rooms and women only support groups but I do think having open space unisex toilets like I've posted below make sense.
It deters bullying in schools and makes it easier for say a mum to take her son into toilets or a dad with and daughter. They have toilets like this where I work and nobody has an issue with it.

Amen - no pun intended.

Here’s the thing. For safeguarding everyone for so many reasons, the most important thing is that there is accessibility and visibility to see if someone is in distress and to be able to get to them in a cubicle.
Be it someone feeling ill and fainting, overdosing, having a seizure, a stroke, a brain haemorrhage, self-harming, a miscarriage, heart attack, being assaulted by someone in the cubicle with them, preventing antisocial behaviour in the cubicle etc etc.

For example, when the young actress Emilia Clarke felt really ill in a gym session she went to the loo to be sick. As anyone would. Fortunately the woman in the next cubicle asked how she was and people were able to get to her and she was taken to hospital and treated for a brain haemorrhage.

This has always worked with toilet doors having gaps top and bottom. Even if she was in there on her own, she would have been noticed as unconscious on the cubicle floor as soon as another person walked in to the toilet block.

EVERYONE seems to agree that mixed sexed toilets have full height doors (that are private and trap you inside if you fall against the inward opening door). This is because, deep down, everyone wants dignity and privacy and door gaps don’t feel so private. (And boys/men can’t be trusted to not stick a camera under the gap). I asked the manufacturers of a theatre’s new mixed sexed toilets how to open a cubicle from the outside and it involved a special tool and video presentation. They admitted someone collapsed behind the new shiny inward opening door would not be noticed (or able to be reached without a lot of work.)

So the solution which is best for the most vulnerable (everyone in the 1st paragraph) is to have single sex toilets with door gaps. As it is now.

Yes, it's amazing how supporting women's rights make us transphobic.
Sorry transwomen - I support your right to wear whatever you damn well fancy, I support your right to call yourself traditionally women's names, but keep your penis out of my toilets, my changing rooms, and my sports teams / events. And I do reserve the right to knee you extremely forcefully in the bollocks if you bring them near me because after all a real woman wouldn't be affected by that.

@MrsOvertonsWindow i’m going to remember this. It’s put brilliantly.

Climbingwallsnotmountains
That’s probably true, I don’t know to be honest, the principle attacker in my friend’s sisters case was one girl. Angry violent people can do a lot of harm male or female.

Have we been told exactly at what point during the transition process a male person loses the risk that ALL male people have of committing sex related crime?

Has any of those declaring that they don't care, given us the magic key to identifying which are the 'nice' male people who won't commit a sex or violent crime vs a 'bad' male person.

Note that I am using male people. Because regardless of all the references to 'transphobia' and all the platitudes about 'I don't care, why should anyone else', MALE people commit 98% of sex crime in the UK and in many other western countries. PLUS the rate of males with sex crime convictions in prison as we speak is higher for those with trans identities than for even the normal male population.

Please posters who tell us that women should accept male people in single sex toilets, can you please provide the evidence that the risk of male people with a trans identity is lower than the rest of the male UK population for safeguarding. Because if you cannot provide this evidence, all you have is your own feelings on this.

Plus, it is not transphobic for women to want to have single sex spaces. And any person who attempts that little bit of emotional manipulation needs to face up to the fact that they, personally, are trying to manipulate women to accept harmful situations based on someone else's belief system.

I look forward to the evidence being published here on this thread. Because there may have been some published recently that we have not seen.

Please. Put the evidence up that convinced you that women and girls should accept some male people into their single sex spaces.

I went to a large nightclub years ago - my friend and I came out of the dancehall, up a stairwell, along a corridor, where there was a furious bloke pacing up and down. Red-faced, pumped-up, shouting "come out!" and slamming his fist against the wall. We quickly got past and into the ladies loos. There, in the corner of the toilets was a shaking tear-streaked woman, frightened to death of the man outside, an abusive ex who had stalked her all around the club and "won't leave without her" - the toilets were the only place she could escape him.
The longer we were there the more women came in and heard the story, were outraged, comforted the woman, gave her water, cleaned her face, offered sweets, one was sent to phone a taxi (no mobiles), some women went to wait for it and hold it, when it arrived we all came out of the toilet together - about 20 women, forming a protective circle 2 or 3 deep around her and we walked like that along the corridor, down the steps, down more steps and right to the taxi door, put her in and saw her safely away. He couldn't get to her and slunk off - those ladies were all fierce and brave and instinctively looked after her and each other.
I'm sure that man would have declared himself a woman on the spot if he could have.

Except for many scenarios that women and girls use the toilets require privacy in that communal space that you have just opened up.

Toilets such as this would have meant that I was not able to take my baby out to do the necessary shopping when there was no 'family room'. Nor would I have been able to wash out my shirt at work when my breast milk exploded because I had to stay back and couldn't express.

You say 'nobody has an issue with it' at work. Where do the women and men who spill food and drinks go to clean off? Do all mothers returning to work have to be no longer breastfeeding?

Or do you also have single sex toilets available that only female people can use?

Nobody says they have an issue with it.
If one, just one, woman said she did have an issue with it, would they change it?
No.

I haven't read the full thread, but I had to post in response to this, as I find this attitude bewilderingly illogical/naive. Safeguarding is about reducing risk. The stats - and sheer common sense! - are very clear that single sex spaces achieve this. Any argument that predators can already access these spaces anyway shows a total disregard of this basic principle.

Until recently, if a set of loos was isolated, a - probably the, in fact - key factor influencing my decision on whether or not to use them would be who else was in the vicinity.

From my young teens, using an unpleasantly lonely & claustrophobic set of ladies' loos at the local cinema mid-film, I'd always, very consciously, look across the vast, empty foyer to make eye contact with the people behind the popcorn counter so they noticed me going in, safe in the blessed certainty (back in those halcyon days) that if a man were to then follow me in, they'd be on it, instantly, metaphorical alarm bells ringing.

Now?

Any man could follow that 13-year-old girl through the door into that long, lonely corridor and claustrophobic room at the far end, and staff wouldn't think twice, or dare to comment.

So, now, I wouldn't use those loos.

About a decade ago my local council introduced unisex changing rooms at the swimming pool. Everyone said how great they would be because it would make it easier for dads to take their kids swimming. I naively didn't foresee it would be a problem.

One day my female friend and I were getting dressed after our swim when we heard a strange sound. A man had come into the cubicle next to us and wedged his head under the gap so he could watch us and he was enthusiastically masturbating. We used to go swimming every week but we stopped after that.

The sad fact is that sexual assaults are 9 times more likely to occur in mixed sex changing rooms. This figure has been confirmed in various newspapers.

Proof that a sign on the door DOES keep out bad men, or at least some of them.

@iwannacoolrider Have you ever ‘flooded’ and needed to wash your hands/clothes in the communal sinks? Do you feel uncomfortable with the sounds of unwrapping sanitary products? Have you ever been in there on your own and then heard men’s footsteps and felt uncomfortable with what you were doing? I would also risk assess if anyone would know how to access a cubicle quickly if someone had collapsed behind those inward-facing doors or a cubicle door was closed and there was a fire evacuation.

Yes.

‘…who benefits from the destruction of social norms?’

I do not support them.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5008890-to-wonder-why-some-women-arent-upset-about-men-being-in-their-safe-spaces

Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals | The Independent | The Independent

Unisex changing rooms put women in danger (thetimes.co.uk)

I have included links to the Times and the Independent both of which show that single sex changing rooms are 9 times safer for women than mixed sex ones.

That sign on the door really does help to keep out some of the predators.

I'd like to think that I'd be okay with it (as I'm an open minded person, have trans friends etc) but in a communal space it would make my uncomfortable. I don't really like sharing communal showers or getting changed in front of other women either, though!

I've definitely no problem with unisex toilets or changing rooms with individual cubicals, that are kept clean. We've got those at work, and it's just no big deal. Many cafes only have one customer toilet - and who cares?

It must be so difficult for trans people though - imagine many must really struggle to be comfortable in any space! The option of individual unisex cubicals does seem to be the way forward!

The only people who fully support having men in women’s toilets are men who are perverts, and women who lack imagination.

Provided there are cubicles, I wouldn’t really care who’s allowed in. Frankly, I’d rather have unisex with cubicles as it’s far easier with dc.

Still haven't RTFT. Just thinking.

Re: my post above, ditto train platforms. Entirely empty, 11pm, I'd not use the loos. But with a few other strangers present, I'd feel much more secure, knowing that the existing social contract meant that a man was immeasurably less likely to follow me in, because he would draw instant attention in doing so.

Now?

That metaphorical red warning light we used to have over the door of every single ladies' loo has been deliberately removed.

And the knowledge that it was right and good to safeguard this space has, incredibly, been replaced with the uncomfortable sense that it's actively morally wrong to do so.

And the hope that any man being publically challenged - "Oi, mate!" - on entering it would scurry away in shame because the social contract was to prioritise the female's physical integrity, has become a fear that he'd argue his corner, because a new, coercive social contract has shifted to protect the male's emotional integrity.