Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

There is no need for any man to ever be in a woman's space...

Father with small daughter can take her into the gents (if she is too old she can go on her own into the ladies).
Bloke dressing up as a woman can go into the gents
Bloke who 'identifies' as a woman can go into the gents

there is zero need for a bloke to be in the ladies changing room / loo

the arguable exception is service staff (cleaners / plumbers / etc.) and if that is necessary it should be managed...

no decent bloke would ever force themselves on anyone else male or female, certainly not into a female space.

no decent bloke actually wants (or is really comfortable with) women in the gents / male changing rooms either (esp. in today's climate where accusations can be made).

It is really simple - you either have fully unisex rooms (like the loos in lots of garages - or the ones we all have at home! - one room / one door) or you have male / female options and based on your birth sex you go into the appropriate one...

no objections to any chap who wishes to put on lipstick and wear a skirt - plenty of cultures in which that is quite normal - but that does not make them female / a woman and they do not need to use anything other than the male loos...

the only reason a man could possibly wish to use the ladies facilities is if they are trying to make a point / force themselves on women / have a sexual perversion / etc. none of which are acceptable...

(and yes I am male - and all the males I know would also agree)

Of course not. I've already encountered a man in a woman's toilet (who told me he was a woman). I don't ever want to experience that again.

I do remember a few years back being in a bar in Kemptown, Brighton and there were only Men’s and Unisex loos - no Women’s

And despite the men’s being empty most of the evening, the unisex one often had a queue and yet the TW that night still used that one rather than the men’s.

I do recall feeling unsettled when a 6ft plus TW in a mini dress and heels pushed past us forcefully to queue jump and very loudly complained about the place being full of housewives tonight

I stopped being okay with men in women's toilets when I learned how some of them find it sexually arousing, especially forcing women to listen to them wanking in a cubicle. That's not okay.

At least before all this you could call out a man in the ladies toilets immediately and buy time to protect yourself. Now you are expected to put up with males in women's spaces.

I don't want to be in an area with a male with only one exit when I'm removing my underwear. Cubicles or no cubicles.

That's a cop-out - most small gyms wont be able to refurbish, theyll just fold - and a dysphoric, claustrophobic nightmare evrn if it could be set up across the board. I assume you take a shower after your swim? How do you even get from the banging-your-elbows-on-the-wall shower cubicle to the locker area and a banging-your-elbows-on-the-wall changing cubicle? Bring along an extra dressing gown, especially if you get there on public transport? And how about gyms that offer sauna - they'll have to set up separate sauna cubicles that still require you to get back and forth to a shower cubicle in between cycles? Ridiculous. And why should women have to sacrifice the warmth, camaraderie and free-flowing conversation that typically exists in these spaces to a small minority of prudes and ideologues? (Not sure if you count yourself among the former or the latter or both - but there's certainly plenty of examples of both types on Twitter.)

This ⬆️⬆️⬆️

I think all toilets and changing rooms should just have all private cubicles, with urinals separate. So much easier for everyone. yes there are isolated bad incidents, but this will always be the case.

No. If there was a way of knowing they were an actual trans women living their life I wouldn't mind... But sadly there's too much risk of male perves taking advantage.

Yes, but before we could complain and get the male removed. Now we have to smile and 'be kind'.

I personally am not that bothered by transwomen in toilets. I've often gone to pubs and clubs where who uses what toilet has as much been on which is closest. BUT I think a club with a pretty regular clientele where everyone understands and consents to the 'rules' is very different to a more general public toilet. It's also not my place to consent for other women. We know why these spaces are single sex, and I've never seen any convincing argument as to why they shouldn't remain so

I'm totally against mixed sex toilets and changing rooms. They are a preditor's paradise.
I've been sexually harrassed by 4 men dressed as women in the ladies toilets during my childhood.
You would think that such a massive change in society, that affects 100% of the population, would need some sort of discussion before implementing wouldn't you?! Why isn't this being discussed in the media?

Oddly though TW never campaign for those though do they? third spaces are transphobic and not “validating”

my Bingo card is already rather full….

I agree.

Also I think men want to feel free to fart etc without a woman hearing them

I think it was Maya Forstater I first heard talking about the Swiss Cheese model of safeguarding - every safeguarding measure has flaws in it (like holes in Swiss Cheese) so you need many layers.

Women's toilets have cubicles; cubicle doors usually have gaps at top & bottom (which have resulted in voyeurism in unisex spaces) and cubicle locks are often faulty or weak (so the door can be shoved in). Boys have bullied girls in unisex toilets by banging on the cubicle doors, saying they can hear the girls opening sanitary products, etc. A woman exiting a cubicle to find herself alone in the sink space with a man may realistically feel vulnerable. Women having to pass by men at urinals leave both men & women feeling uncomfortable. I think a lot of women are going to self exclude from places with unisex toilets. I know I avoid them, I no longer go to restaurants or bars that have introduced them.

Re unisex changing rooms with cubicles, such as you find at swimming pools. I don't mind those and mostly feel safe because there are usually a good number of other people around. including more of than not, decent blokes who would act if a purple haired twit saw an opportunity to act out their fetishes.

That's very different from female ONLY toilets and changing rooms. Where I expect to find people who meet the definition.

Women's toilets have cubicles; cubicle doors usually have gaps at top & bottom.

These were an essential safety feature bought in during the late 1970s so that anyone taken ill or passed out could be spotted and rescued.

But all the cubicles at my swimming pool are single, private unisex cubicles. Over the last fifteen years they've had to add kick boards to them to prevent men looking or holding a camera under the partition. Then they added ceilings to prevent men from looking or holding a camera over the partition. Pervs menz gonna perv.

Many toilets have floor to ceiling doors and partitions so it’s clearly not a requirement.

But the point is that you don't know if they're an attacker, or a voyeur or anything else undesirable.
If they're just going about their business in a cubicle then they can use the cubicles in the MEN'S toilets / changing rooms.
Where men can be dickheads to them because they don’t look like them. My friend’s sister was properly beaten up in a nightclub bathroom by a group of girls- you know the kind- the ‘what the fuck are you looking at’ kind. I’ve walked home from a concert and had a girl follow me and shout in my ear and properly scare me as she did the ‘you not going to fucking talk to me? You think you’re better than me?’ before she left. Yes men are an issue, yes I’d be more worried with a man following me at night etc but in a bathroom if there’s someone not bothering me I don’t care who they are

Men being dickheads to other men is not women’s problem to solve

I don't. I'm sure that majority of trans people are completely harmless but I still don't want to urinate in the next cubicle to them. Or support loopholes that allow any Tom, Dick or Harry from under the vast trans umbrella in female spaces,. either.

But a man up against a man has a similar type of physical power, ditto women v women. Man v woman is an imbalance of physical power.

Having experienced this a few times no, I don't support it. As for the "but there are cubicles" argument, the fact there are confined spaces someone could trap me in doesn't make me feel any safer, unsurprisingly. Especially given some venues are very noisy and the toilets well out of the way.

I have a friend who says she's not arsed but obviously that's not the same as actively supporting it.

Me ! :) completely happy…

(also I will continue to nip into the men’s loo if there’s a queue for the womens so 🤷‍♀️)

transphobia is absolutely vile.

in response to ‘but what if a creepy cis-man tries to exploit this’ - your issue needs to be with creepy cis-men. Sadly, a man who is willing to exploit this isn’t going to be deterred by a sign on the door of someone wearing a skirt.